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Post by Oliver on Sept 18, 2009 17:25:59 GMT -5
That's a good idea - it lets people take themed forces. I'd keep in the non-gigantic Daemon characters though - they're good for representing one manipulative daemon leading a cult. I'd force people to choose which of their characters is the general though, to stop large armies being able to take whatever they like as Troops. Also, there's a risk that the Mortal characters will never get a look-in, given the advantages of the Daemonic and CSM characters. They'll have to be fairly cheap. Possibly they could be the only characters who can really buff their troops, with the Daemon and CSM characters being more about killing stuff.
There's a risk with the different types of trait that the pure Cult armies won't see as much use as the combined ones, because they have fewer combinations of traits available. It might be an idea to make their extreme traits more powerful than the 'as x' ones.
Frickin' sweet diagram btw.
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Post by Oliver on Sept 19, 2009 10:45:31 GMT -5
Here's another idea: put in a USR called Fearsome, which means that all units suffer Hearts of Rubber against the thing's attacks, apart from ones with Fearsome or the Iron Will USR. It'd let you do a sort-of morale system without having to thingy around with extra stats. Iron Will could also be used in other situations - protecting against psychic nastiness etc - that would be affected by high Leadership in 40K.
I also came up with quite a characterful Chaosy psychic power: Momentary Madness. Pick an infantry model in 8" with line of sight to you, who doesn't have Iron Will. That model makes one attack against a model in its unit of your choice, and may get a backstrike bonus for it. Other restrictions might be that it can only target models with Fortitude 1 or under a certain Skill. Anyway, it should be fun with explosive weapons...
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Post by Adam on Sept 19, 2009 11:12:08 GMT -5
That's a good idea - it lets people take themed forces. I'd keep in the non-gigantic Daemon characters though - they're good for representing one manipulative daemon leading a cult. Crap, I forgot Heralds! Yeah, include those too, and they'll allow mass use of daemons. I'd force people to choose which of their characters is the general though, to stop large armies being able to take whatever they like as Troops. Well, you want to allow all-Marine armies with high daemon presence (e.g. Word Bearers). Given that there are only two types of limited or auxiliary unit, usually daemons and CSM, and unless you use Warp Rift, daemons only become unlimited when you take a character of their Mark, I don't think the freedom to choose is a problem. Bear in mind that CSM are very expensive and daemons aren't going to be cheap either, and you need cultists if you want proper magic (without cultists, CSM psychic powers are like they are now, i.e. totally lacklustre for an army that's allied to the frickin' Warp, but sacrificing cultists powers up spells enormously). Having a huge freedom of choice isn't an on-table advantage, just as having restrictions aren't necessarily a disadvantage, something GW completely missed with the old Space Marine trait system (*cough* We Stand Alone *cough*). Vast amounts of options are what Chaos are all about, and I personally don't see how allowing a player to go 50/50 Bloodletters/Berserkers in his Cult of Khorne instead of 75/25 one or the other is going to unbalance the game.  Also, there's a risk that the Mortal characters will never get a look-in, given the advantages of the Daemonic and CSM characters. They'll have to be fairly cheap. Possibly they could be the only characters who can really buff their troops, with the Daemon and CSM characters being more about killing stuff. They'll be cheap and the hard stuff will be expensive. (I foresee Mortal < Herald < Chaos Lord < Greater Daemon in both price and power level.) They make good supporting Heroes for a 300 point CSM army, lead Lost and the Damned armies effectively, and get the most use out of cultists and the presence of lots of troops - Mortal heroes (good name for them, btw) can benefit from having cultists around as well as from their deaths. I don't want a player to blow 50+ points on a character only for it to be usable only as a beatstick, so I doubt I'd go for Mortals being the only buff-givers (particularly in the case of Lords of Change). There's a risk with the different types of trait that the pure Cult armies won't see as much use as the combined ones, because they have fewer combinations of traits available. It might be an idea to make their extreme traits more powerful than the 'as x' ones. Not quite. Traits aren't bonuses, each one has a drawback or replaces a normal special rule, making armies different instead of better. I assume you noticed the bits in italics on the chart? Those aren't one line descriptions, they're special rules. Favoured is straight out of the 3.5 Codex, with bonuses. And it's still awesome. Units whose size is a multiple of their God's sacred number get the corresponding Mark for free. Cultists are sacrificed in multiples of that number instead of 10 (Slaanesh Sorcerers, for example, can pump a spell to over-nine-thousand power level by sacrificing six cultists instead of ten). Extreme traits are major playstyle changes. Cult armies, for example, are forbidden from taking anything other than units marked of their god, but get alternative special rules or Favoured benefits. (Maybe the cultist sacrifice rule could be reserved for the Cults rather than the normal god-aligned armies.) So that I can power up each army without affecting balance, I've included a special rule with each type. Normal, untraited or Undivided armies have Crushing Attack, a once-per-game feat thing that may involve a mass buff and/or bringing units in from reserve in a similar way to Commander Cody's Seize Ground. That's pretty good, so I have some leeway to amp up the other armies at the expense of Black Legion-style tactical acumen. Frickin' sweet diagram btw. Thanks ;D |
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Post by dragonlord on Sept 19, 2009 16:48:53 GMT -5
The diagram is nice, though before you go any further with it, particularly the intermediary spokes between single god dedication (which I like by the way), I must point out that the orientation of the diagram is wrong, the antithesis of Tzeentch is Nurgle, not Khorne and the antithesis of Khorne is Slaanesh. So the diagram needs changing, as do the 'Terrible' and 'Devoted' intermediary spokes. Also did you mean to allow Undivided to have one more trait than any of the first ring spokes? In addition I would say that Undivided should have the stipulation that they can't choose more than one trait from any single god. Overall I am very much a fan of the idea, it's what I would like Chaos to be more like in 40k, and why I and probably most other Chaos players would prefer a return to the 3.5 chaos codex. The extreme trait spokes should all be just that, extreme, rather different from a normal army and more specialised, they should be no more or less inherently powerful than the more standard variations so people will still use them but they should probably require more finesse to use properly (however much 'finesse' and 'Cult of Blood' may not seem appropriate to use in the same sentence  ), after all one imagines that khornate armies are more common than full blown cults of blood. I agree that mortal heroes shouldn't be the only ones with buffing abilities, but they should perhaps be more reliant on their buffing abilities than other more powerful heroes. |
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Post by Adam on Sept 20, 2009 10:33:36 GMT -5
The diagram is nice, though before you go any further with it, particularly the intermediary spokes between single god dedication (which I like by the way), I must point out that the orientation of the diagram is wrong, the antithesis of Tzeentch is Nurgle, not Khorne and the antithesis of Khorne is Slaanesh. So the diagram needs changing, as do the 'Terrible' and 'Devoted' intermediary spokes. Fffff... uh... damn! Okay, I'll change that, sigh. (This is annoying, as Nurgle/Tzeentch fits Devoted quite well, and Khorne/Slaanesh is probably better for Terrible than Khorne/Tzeentch.) Also did you mean to allow Undivided to have one more trait than any of the first ring spokes? In addition I would say that Undivided should have the stipulation that they can't choose more than one trait from any single god. Yes, and good idea. Overall I am very much a fan of the idea, it's what I would like Chaos to be more like in 40k, and why I and probably most other Chaos players would prefer a return to the 3.5 chaos codex. I just opened the 3.5 codex to check the antithesis thing, and felt suddenly nostalgic. Although not a Chaos player, I planned to start an army for about three years, and I remember reading through the book and looking at all the combos, designing obscene Daemon Princes, etc. 100+ points of Gifts and a dreadaxe - I wanted the invulnerable save negation over the +2 Strength for killing Terminators and stuff, and because he was going to have an axe anyway. Hell, if anybody uses Chaos against me I'm fine with them using the old codex instead of the new one (provided they don't play Iron Warriors; tanks > Nids ;D). Ollie does that, actually, and it's hardly a gamebreaker. It's a far superior codex. The extreme trait spokes should all be just that, extreme, rather different from a normal army and more specialised, they should be no more or less inherently powerful than the more standard variations so people will still use them but they should probably require more finesse to use properly (however much 'finesse' and 'Cult of Blood' may not seem appropriate to use in the same sentence ), after all one imagines that khornate armies are more common than full blown cults of blood. My thoughts exactly. The major restrictions on extreme armies *will* be slightly problematic (Subtle armies might not get vehicles, for example, other than deepstriking walkers) as they'll induce weaknesses in the game. These can be countered with the armies' inherent abilities, but those will need more timing. For example, Cults of Khorne lack access to heavy weapons in squads, and have to pay points to Mark vehicles. To compensate, squads (or possibly the army) could have once-per-game Anti-Material (8) on their chainaxes. I agree that mortal heroes shouldn't be the only ones with buffing abilities, but they should perhaps be more reliant on their buffing abilities than other more powerful heroes. Yes, in the sense that Mortals lack the alternative option (beatsticking) whereas Chaos Lords are quite happy to murder stuff with daemon weapons as they are to buff their own men. Mortals will probably have more options too, making them a little more versatile; daemonic commanders will vary depending on god, and Chaos Lords will probably look a bit like the Republic Jedi but with most of the secondary rules removed: i.e. one very good tactical domination ability, one or two other options and that's it. Being a bit psychotic, they won't have access to the defensive buffs (Lightsaber Block type things) that most other commanders do. Keeping Marines alive is what cultists are for. |
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Post by Oliver on Sept 20, 2009 16:27:11 GMT -5
Don't forget that half the fun of Chaos Lords is pimping them to ridiculous levels - they'll be wanting a fair few options to go with their miscellaneous tactical power. At the very least three weapon loadouts, a couple of movement modes and the option of Daemonic Stature with an attached stat boost. And, given the emphasis on chaos magic the list's going to have, the Sorceror should be a whole different character, based more on dishing out the interesting hurt from 12" or so off and less on bashing things. Will things like Thousand Sons troopers and the lovely, lovely Blight Drone just be available to cult armies, or to everyone apart from their gods' antitheses?
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Post by Adam on Sept 21, 2009 8:30:02 GMT -5
Don't forget that half the fun of Chaos Lords is pimping them to ridiculous levels - they'll be wanting a fair few options to go with their miscellaneous tactical power. At the very least three weapon loadouts, a couple of movement modes and the option of Daemonic Stature with an attached stat boost. Patience, young Padawan. My favourite part of the 3.5 'dex was the armoury, so there'll be plenty of Daemonic Gifts in this one. Given that IF doesn't have a very granular points system, I might give a normal Lord a basic allowance of up to X (probably 3 or 4) Gifts, then an option to upgrade to a Daemon Prince which gives him Stature and allowance of another few Gifts. Not sure though. And, given the emphasis on chaos magic the list's going to have, the Sorceror should be a whole different character, based more on dishing out the interesting hurt from 12" or so off and less on bashing things. I was thinking debuff and disruption machine myself, rather than ranged-attack beatstick. Of course, a Sorcerer should have at least one stupidoattack, which might vary depending on Mark. Will things like Thousand Sons troopers and the lovely, lovely Blight Drone just be available to cult armies, or to everyone apart from their gods' antitheses? Blight Drones? Effing Chaos. Every time I think I've got everything something else crops up. Last night I wrote down a list of units; it's huge - easily 30+ different units to design, perhaps even 40 - and thought I'd put everything down. Realised this morning that I'd forgotten Obliterators. Sigh. Blight Drones are Forge World though, so I don't think I'll bother putting those in unless it'll fill a hole in the Nurgle list or somebody goes and spends the £40 odd required to get hold of one. As to your actual question: Undivided armies will have no holds barred access to everything, unless traits say otherwise. Godly armies will probably be allowed everything but the antithesis, with some limitations, and Cult armies get god-only stuff, but they get the best of it. (Have a look at the unit list here.) Edit: Oh, yeah, forgot to ask. I'm currently wondering whether to make Subtle a combination of Nurgle and Slaanesh (probably with a name change to Insidious) instead of Tzeentch/Slaanesh, and Devoted the opposite. While Devoted thematically fits Nurgle's patronly image the best, you'd think Devoted armies would get the best magic, which means Tzeentch/Slaanesh. Likewise, Nurgle's diseases have a nice sneaky insidious feel to them, but giving an army a special rule called 'The Path Unseen' and then not making it Tzeentchian is a crime. Opinions? |
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Post by Adam on Sept 21, 2009 8:55:40 GMT -5
Here's another idea: put in a USR called Fearsome, which means that all units suffer Hearts of Rubber against the thing's attacks, apart from ones with Fearsome or the Iron Will USR. It'd let you do a sort-of morale system without having to thingy around with extra stats. Iron Will could also be used in other situations - protecting against psychic nastiness etc - that would be affected by high Leadership in 40K. I also came up with quite a characterful Chaosy psychic power: Momentary Madness. Pick an infantry model in 8" with line of sight to you, who doesn't have Iron Will. That model makes one attack against a model in its unit of your choice, and may get a backstrike bonus for it. Other restrictions might be that it can only target models with Fortitude 1 or under a certain Skill. Anyway, it should be fun with explosive weapons... I didn't see this post until just now. What's Iron Will? A new rule put in to avoid models being scared? Problem with that is that this is 40K. Fluffwise, the stuff that isn't going to run away, isn't going to run away EVER. That is, about 50% of the game would have to have Iron Will. Space Marines, Chaos Space Marines, Tyranids, Eldar Aspect Warriors, Grey Knights, Sisters of Battle, Necrons, some Orks, some Dark Eldar, and all Heroes. Thing is, you don't even need it in most cases. Something that can reliably kill five Space Marines in one activation is powerful enough without the ability to make the other half of the tactical squad automatically disappear (that's 30 points' worth gone *poof*, on top of the 30 points it's already killed). So, generally, it'd only come in handy against troops in the first place (and large units of Aspect Warriors, who really don't need anything making them more fragile). On top of that, there's already a rule called Fearsome, although it isn't in the rulebook. Darth Maul has it. Fearsome means that if you kill two or more members of a unit with Hearts of Rubber, they automatically rout. Ouch. That's harsh, so we shouldn't dispense it too lightly, if at all. Bear in mind that Imperial Guard will have Hearts of Rubber more or less army-wide, and while they have plenty of ways to increase their Skill for the purpose (it's what officers are for) they'll have few, if any, ways to nullify it completely. On top of *that*, everything in 40K is pants-wettingly terrifying, so if Joe Chaos Lord gets Fearsome why shouldn't my Carnifex/Greater Daemon/Talos/Daemonette/Chaos Space Marine/Ork/etc get it too? End result: It's Maul's party trick, so there. ;D Momentary Madness is fun, very Chaosy, and has a good name too Reminds me of Darth Sidious' Word of Hatred. Word of Hatred doesn't always work, as it requires a D10>Skill roll, but it's *much* better, as it lets you turn them around, attack with the entire unit, then shoot them in the back. Momentary Madness is a nice little ability though that I'd happily give to, say, the Mortal High Magus, with the stipulation that he can't cast it on the same model multiple times in a turn. |
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Post by dragonlord on Sept 21, 2009 18:00:06 GMT -5
Subtle doesn't need to change from being Tzeentch/Slaanesh, it's Terrible (and Devoted) that need to change, on your diagram I'd suggest switching the positions of Tzeentch and Slaanesh, that would set the gods in the appropriate relative positions and demonstrate the minor axis changes necessary.
As far as Blight Drones and other Forgeworld stuff goes I wouldn't bother putting them into the main rules, they don't go into the main GW rules either after all, if you feel like it you can create rules for the Forgeworld stuff later.
Edit: I was having a further think through your Chaos trait diagram and it occured to me that while of course they would not be the only ones described by the extreme traits the Traitor Legions would fit into the extreme trait circles quite well (which possibly is what you had intended). The World Eaters, Thousand Sons, Emperors Children and Death Guard would of course be cults of their patron god. As the Shadows being a combination of Tzeentchian scheming and manipulation with Slaaneshi precision strikes sounds rather Alpha Legion-esque to me (as does 'As the Shadows' of course). As the Night being an enhancement of Terrible and in that a Tzeentch/Khorne combination and connected to the Night Lords seems to work to me; if you combine Khornate violence with Tzeentchian scheming terror tactics seems like a logical outcome. As Iron combining Khornate violence with Nurglish patience and slow, unstoppable march seems like a sensible way to arrive at the meat-grinder seige warfare of the Iron Warriors. The only problem is Devoted (or whatever the combination of Slaanesh and Nurgle becomes) as the extreme here should be the Word Bearers, but I can't come up with a convincing combination of Slaaneshi and Nurgle traits that makes sense for the Word Bearers.
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Post by Adam on Sept 22, 2009 13:45:33 GMT -5
Subtle doesn't need to change from being Tzeentch/Slaanesh, it's Terrible (and Devoted) that need to change, on your diagram I'd suggest switching the positions of Tzeentch and Slaanesh, that would set the gods in the appropriate relative positions and demonstrate the minor axis changes necessary. This is AFTER I updated the diagram. I swapped Tzeentch and Slaanesh around, changing Terrible to Khorne/Slaanesh which is fine, and Devoted to Slaanesh/Nurgle which isn't that amazing. As far as Blight Drones and other Forgeworld stuff goes I wouldn't bother putting them into the main rules, they don't go into the main GW rules either after all, if you feel like it you can create rules for the Forgeworld stuff later. Yeah, that was my thought on the matter. I can't be arsed to do nine million Forge World variants on everything. Edit: I was having a further think through your Chaos trait diagram and it occured to me that while of course they would not be the only ones described by the extreme traits the Traitor Legions would fit into the extreme trait circles quite well (which possibly is what you had intended). It is *exactly* what I had intended. That's why I'm slightly bothered about where Devoted has ended up after I corrected the diagram: Slaaneshi abilities (misdirection, disruption, other tricksiness) don't fit them quite so well as Tzeentch (different disruption, mutation, offence). Also, thematically, Nurgle has a patronly image and Tzeentch relies on devotees to use as pawns in his plan as well as just to provide him with power/souls, so those two are the best fit fluffwise. |
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Post by dragonlord on Sept 22, 2009 16:54:44 GMT -5
To be honest I'm finding it difficult to construct a realistic Word Bearer like philosophy using Tzeentchian and Nurglish traits either, putting Khorne in in place of one or the other doesn't help much either.
Perhaps it would help to start from what the Word Bearers are like and see if we can identify appropriate Slaaneshi and Nurgle traits?
To that extent how I see the Word Bearers is as a bit like the Chaos equivalent of a combination between the Black Templars and the Dark Angels. They have a (chaotic) monastic like character, unlike like some of the other Traitor Legions they really do worship the chaos gods, and they build great cathedrals to the gods wherever they go. They also however have a crusading aspect, bringing their faith to the unbelievers by force if necessary. Force isn't the only way they convert others to their faith though, they also have many skilled demagogues who can demolish someones faith in the Imperial Creed through their skilled oratory.
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Post by Adam on Sept 23, 2009 5:25:46 GMT -5
That's basically it.  Let's look at it from a rules perspective. Nurgle trait ideas: - Nurgle's Rot - allows Icons of Nurgle to be upgraded to carry Nurgle's Rot, which works much like it does now, has a small chance to damage things near it. Reasonably Devoted, as such servants of Nurgle will likely desire his infectious honours. - Unstoppable - Nurgle units can spend action points to gain +1 Armour per action point spent. Also sort of fits, for the same reason - imagine them praying or shouting invocations. - Behold Our Virulence - Action usable by soldiers. Wounds inflicted by Nurgle models against enemy models engaged with a unit that's used Behold Our Virulence this turn count double. Non-Nurgle models may not attack this enemy unit (they don't like the virulence either). Very specifically Nurgle and doesn't really work for an undivided army. - Gifts of the Grandfather - Action, usable once per game by Nurgle units. The unit's activation immediately ends and every model in the unit takes a single wound. The unit ignores all damage and is ignored for purposes of mission objectives until it next activates. Self-sacrificial and religious - I'd say that would fit Devoted fairly well. - Cankerous Skin - Units with the Mark of Nurgle gain +1 Fortitude and -2 Armour (or similar) instead of the normal +1 Armour benefit. This is for all out Death Guard units/armies and might in fact be part of the Extreme trait instead, or even a unit upgrade (see the Chaos thread). - Can't be bothered thinking of more Nurgle ideas. So far, those aren't *too* bad a fit. I'd like Slaanesh/Tzeentch trait suggestions, if anyone has any. I just tried coming up with some properly Slaaneshi unit upgrades in the other thread, and for some reason, it's really hard. I think Tzeentch would be similarly difficult. Khorne is comparatively easy - different variations on the theme of 'get in there and tear stuff up'. BTW, looking at the traits now, each one doesn't detract from an army in any way, only opens up more options. That's kind of fine by me though, because I think it'll be much easier to balance the list if I assume there are going to be two traits in play at all times and deliberately overprice Chaos Marks by a point or two to allow for this. Units can benefit from point cost reductions or something for each trait you sacrifice. I wonder if Devoted's Rites of Invocation should allow Undivided units to benefit from Marked traits... or even if there should be a trait that does that in the first place. Or give it to the four non-Godly army types, i.e. Terrible/Subtle/Devoted/Merciless. Devoted definitely need it. Hmm. If the above Nurgle traits are any indication, Chaos Marks will be the driving force behind which units are affected. This obviously shouldn't be the case, as it would make giving godly traits to any of the Undivided armies pointless - I think a 50/50 split between Mark-unit traits and army/hero tactical traits is the way to go. That way, it works much better. A subtle infiltration army isn't suddenly going to be chanting siren-songs from their hiding places, but can still play with Slaaneshi misdirection. Iron Warriors aren't going to be diseased or praying to Nurgle to protect them from the enemy's bullets, but thick armour, digging in and mobile-defence tactics mirror the way the Nurgle armies conduct themselves. Although Devoted should still get their god-benefits. |
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Post by dragonlord on Sept 23, 2009 8:31:47 GMT -5
For Nurgle there's also blight grenades you might want to consider putting in, not sure how they'd work in an IF context though.
I've made some Slaanesh suggestions in the other thread so I have yours to compare them to.
For Tzeentch something that makes sorcerers more prevalent and/or makes their psychic powers more powerful but possibly more risky would be fitting, and much like the way in the 3.5 codex the mark of Tzeentch allowed you to upgrade any aspiring champion to a sorcerer. Something like Inferno Bolts would also be appropriate, and of course a Rubric upgrade, as would something along the lines of Darth Sidious' machinations special rule that allows you to either mess with you opponents deployment or re-shuffle yours. I'm not sure how you're doing chaos psychic powers but Tzeentch sorcerers should definitely have access to a warptime like power and possibly powers similar to the Eldar Farseer powers Doom and Fortune representing Tzeentchian manipulation of the strands of fate. The focus of Tzeentchian traits should be sorcery and manipulation. Tzeentchian units having better invulnerable saves in the current codex is also appropriate, but I'm not sure how you could implement something like that in IF.
I agree that that you should have traits that aren't linked to the chaos marks so that you can use them more easily in the non-god armies, for example Unstoppable would be quite appropriate to the Iron Warriors as one can image them building makeshift barricades, etc.
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Post by Adam on Sept 23, 2009 13:27:53 GMT -5
For Nurgle there's also blight grenades you might want to consider putting in, not sure how they'd work in an IF context though. Easy. They nullify Charge and/or Onslaught. Most armies (especially in the 40K mod) are going to have something with the Charge rule, so they'll be worth having I should think, as long as I don't end up making armies that depend on such attacks. If so I'll have to change or nerf them. I've made some Slaanesh suggestions in the other thread so I have yours to compare them to. Duly replied to. For Tzeentch something that makes sorcerers more prevalent and/or makes their psychic powers more powerful but possibly more risky would be fitting, and much like the way in the 3.5 codex the mark of Tzeentch allowed you to upgrade any aspiring champion to a sorcerer. Something like Inferno Bolts would also be appropriate, and of course a Rubric upgrade, as would something along the lines of Darth Sidious' machinations special rule that allows you to either mess with you opponents deployment or re-shuffle yours. Yes to all of that, sounds like fun. The old Inferno Bolts actually made your weapon into a Blast weapon... problem is, I'm considering making sonic blasters Explosive as it is, and I want as little duplication as possible... have to come up with something more interesting. I'm not sure how you're doing chaos psychic powers but Tzeentch sorcerers should definitely have access to a warptime like power and possibly powers similar to the Eldar Farseer powers Doom and Fortune representing Tzeentchian manipulation of the strands of fate. The focus of Tzeentchian traits should be sorcery and manipulation. Tzeentchian units having better invulnerable saves in the current codex is also appropriate, but I'm not sure how you could implement something like that in IF. Warptime... Everyone seems to love this power. One can't deny that +D3 attacks are not to be sniffed at, but I personally think it's really boring ;D I do wish the Lash of Submission wasn't such an overpowered ability in a 40K context, because other than Gift of Chaos, it's clearly the coolest and most interesting of the Chaos psychic powers. Doom, fine. It's basically a debuff spell in disguise, and a powerful one at that. I like Doom myself, and I could see it fitting into a Tzeentch force. Fortune, meh. It's too ordinary; a +x armour buff is more the province of a Space Marine Librarian or Eldar Farseer than a capricious, self-serving Chaos Sorcerer, never mind a Tzeentchian one. For a Tzeentchian protective spell, how about one called Displacement that, when the unit it's cast on becomes engaged, lets you teleport that unit and one unit it's engaged with to anywhere you fancy within 8"... that'll make people think twice about charging those objective-protecting rubrics. Your melee might just shift a few inches to the right and 'accidentally' join up with a melee involving a huge squad of Khorne Berserkers. I'm not sure yet how to implement the increased resilience of Rubrics. Some kind of invulnerable save would be convenient. Maybe state that no weapon can wound them on better than a 5+ or even 6+ (some high-Power weapons are the equivalent of low-AP weapons in 40K). But probably keep the Pr10 instant death thing. Battlecannons made mincemeat out of 3.5 'dex Rubrics (as did Genestealers with implant attacks, but that's by the by). I agree that that you should have traits that aren't linked to the chaos marks so that you can use them more easily in the non-god armies, for example Unstoppable would be quite appropriate to the Iron Warriors as one can image them building makeshift barricades, etc. Yeah, I want to make that into an armywide trait somehow. Maybe just let it apply to all units with a Chaos Mark of some description. |
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Post by dragonlord on Sept 23, 2009 16:46:52 GMT -5
The Chaos version of warptime allows the sorcerer to re-roll any failed to hit or to wound rolls not give +D3 attacks, I presume that is a Space Marine psychic power of the same name.
I can see Fortune not fitting quite so well, I was thinking of Doom initially, looked it up in the Eldar codex and then saw Fortune too and thought that might work too, so mentioned it.
The only thing is that it makes more sense to me for Rubric marines to be more resilient to low power weapons than to high power weapons so a Fortitude or Armour increase would make more sense. Admittedly that would be similar to Plague Marines but they would be different in a lot of other ways.
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Post by Adam on Sept 24, 2009 12:31:18 GMT -5
The Chaos version of warptime allows the sorcerer to re-roll any failed to hit or to wound rolls not give +D3 attacks, I presume that is a Space Marine psychic power of the same name. Yeah, re-rolls, whatever, I can't remember ;D Same thing either way, all it does is make you better in close combat, which while certainly being useful, is more of a generic Undivided power (as it is now) than a Tzeentchian one. The only thing is that it makes more sense to me for Rubric marines to be more resilient to low power weapons than to high power weapons so a Fortitude or Armour increase would make more sense. Admittedly that would be similar to Plague Marines but they would be different in a lot of other ways. Hm. Plague Marines, I think, have the "I laugh at bolters" base covered, what with being Armour 15, or, optionally, having less Armour but packing Fortitude 3. Rubric Marines used to be like that in the 3.5 Codex; now they've swung the other way and are more resistant to low-AP firepower. Either way, I want to make them a bit more interesting or different, and giving them the same bonuses as Plague Marines is a bit homogeneous. Being Armour 14 and Fortitude 2 is pretty resilient as it is, I'd say! |
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Post by dragonlord on Sept 25, 2009 17:01:42 GMT -5
Not just that, it works for shooting too, I was thinking it would appropriately represent Tzeentchian divination and twisting fate.
Indeed I just couldn't think of a particularly appropriate way of representing Rubric marines that was different to plague marines.
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Post by Adam on Sept 26, 2009 6:27:19 GMT -5
Not just that, it works for shooting too, I was thinking it would appropriately represent Tzeentchian divination and twisting fate. Hmm, does it? Okay, let's put that in. If I word it as "the model's controlling player may re-roll all rolls to hit and damage rolls until the end of the model's activation", it works on Commanded units as well, and is a bit more versatile in general. Indeed I just couldn't think of a particularly appropriate way of representing Rubric marines that was different to plague marines. An interesting way to give them more resilience (this'd probably be a lasts-till-end-of-turn type spell for TS Aspiring Sorcerors) would be to allow them to move after being hit by melee attacks. You can suffer the damage, then move out of the way, protecting them a bit more against dedicated melee units, who might tear right through a Tzeentch army (as it's full of elite-of-the-elite expensive units, all of whom are mediocre-to-crap in close combat). |
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Post by dragonlord on Sept 27, 2009 7:38:16 GMT -5
Given the way IF works with alternating activations I don't think that would work that well as if you had two units that get charged and pull them both back you'll be able to fire at one of the assaulting units but then your opponent can just charge the other assaulting unit back in before your other one gets a chance to fire and they actually do worse than they would otherwise.
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Post by Adam on Sept 27, 2009 9:48:33 GMT -5
What? I don't really understand what you're getting at Is it this: let's say two units of Khorne Berserkers vs two units of Thousand Sons. - Berserker unit #1 charges TSon unit #1 and kills a marine or two. The rubrics pull back. - The rubrics that just pulled out of melee shoot up KB unit #1. - Repeat with #2's. How is that worse off than the alternative? - KB #1 charges TS #1 and makes TWO rounds of attacks (Actions 2). Somewhere between 2 and 4 rubrics die. - TS #1 shoots back at KB #1 in melee, does the same amount of damage as otherwise. - Repeat for #2's. Also, it lets you do this: - KB #1 charges TS #1, kills 1-2, rubrics run away. - TS #1 moves over and shoots up KB #2. - KB #2 charges either unit, causes considerably less damage than KB #1 due to having been hosed down with inferno bolts. Whichever unit it charges moves out of the way. - TS #2 shoots the crap out of what's left of KB #2, probably wiping them out. If the enemy Hero uses Command to re-engage KB #1, the charge attacks cut in again and the rubrics just move away, leaving their mates free to shoot at KB #1 as normal. I fail to see any situation where this could possibly be worse than staying engaged (against a melee army, that is) apart from "there's a Predator Annihilator over there". Against a balanced army, careful decisions would take place, and against a shooty army it's obviously the worse option in most circumstances, but has its uses. |
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), after all one imagines that khornate armies are more common than full blown cults of blood.
Let's look at it from a rules perspective.