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Post by Oliver on Jul 21, 2009 15:35:08 GMT -5
So a while ago I decided to make a skirmish-level wargame, intended to be pretty kinetic and interesting, because i was sort of dissatisfied with the way things like close combat worked in other games. Anyway, here's the result, along with some sample profiles for three 40K troop types. The rules should be versatile enough to accommodate any setting, though, and I intend to upload some more sample profiles for fantasy-style things. Feel free to modify, make army lists, or whatever. Also, it might have potential as an RPG combat system, i don't really know. Anyway, have fun! www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=521dc9393149b6fb6b21be4093fab7ace04e75f6e8ebb871Also, please note that this is a very preliminary version, and it's a work in progress, so please forgive things like titles in odd places. If you see any rules oddities, contradictions or problems, don't hesititate to point them out. Ollie Edit, 30 July: There's a new version there, just click the link. |
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Post by Adam on Jul 22, 2009 11:17:06 GMT -5
Wow, now that's better than the last one you sent me. The layout and writing are a lot clearer. Here's some stuff I think could be changed. Mostly syntax errors. They happen to all of us... a lot.  - Crippling: I mentioned before that crippling might be too harsh. How about -1 R, -1 S, -2 M? That represents its effects adequately without rendering the model useless. - Weapons: Your ranged weapon intro text still talks about having at least four different profiles  I think some of the special rules might warrant relying on to-hit rolls instead of damage rolls. Particularly Critical Fatality, and possibly Knockdown. - Dangerous terrain: Interesting ideas. The minefield needs to specify where along the movement path the explosion and model are placed. - Movement: You've still got 'Lying Down' instead of 'Lying Prone' mentioned in here. - Shooting: remember, weapons don't have Stationary stats any more. - Combat: Should non-targeted actions really nullify attacks? I guess that represents parrying, but that's kinda hard to do when you're weapon-switching. I think non-targeted actions need to be dealt with separately - outside of the Reflexes roll. For example, a model that gets knocked down and continuously stabbed will never get up until it wins a Reflexes roll, which will lead to severe suffering on its part. Also, Shove might need an attack roll? - Shooting into melee: You need to specify that if you miss twice (or once you've rolled to hit each model in the combat once, or whatever, it's up to you  you stop targeting other models. With the current wording, you might end up going on forever. There we go, that's all the nitpicking I could find in this version. Overall I like where you're going with this, it's a pretty cool system. Have you decided on a setting yet? Also, the Point Blank Shot sounds fun. I was going to put a similar skill in Duel of Steel; eventually that wound up taking shape as the Gun Mount MWSR. I daresay you'll want to give shotguns and their ilk a rule granting them an unholy damage bonus on PBS attacks. |
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Post by Adam on Jul 22, 2009 12:20:06 GMT -5
And on the more constructive side, here's a bunch of ideas for you:
Rules
Point Blank Shot (WSR): The weapon may be used as a melee weapon, but can only attack (read: can't parry or whatever), and only fires one shot regardless of its Shots characteristic. If it's two-handed, it suffers a -1 to hit.
Parry (WSR): The model does not lose its action in close combat when hit by an enemy if it has this weapon equipped.
Gunslinger: When the model fires, if it has two one-handed ranged weapons currently equipped, it may fire them both.
Duellist: If the model is in close combat, and has two one-handed melee weapons equipped, it may attack with both of them, and may target the attacks against different enemies.
Equipment
Infra-visor: The model doesn't need LOS to shoot things. Bear in mind some objects can stop a bullet entirely, or interfere with shooting by being in the way, but only these give cover bonuses to the target.
Smoke grenade: One use per grenade. Place a 5" circular template with its centre anywhere within 3" of the user. The smoke gives a cover bonus of 3 to models within or behind it. It dissipates at the beginning of the current player's next turn.
Riot shield: Gives a cover bonus of 2 against any shooting from the front 180 degree arc and LOS of the firer. Doesn't apply against sniper rifles.
Arm blades: The model is always armed with a 'Shots' 2, Damage 6+(2) melee weapon in addition to whatever it's carrying.
Saboteur bomb (for sci-fi or magic-using settings): One use only. Every enemy model within 6" of the user may not make attacks with its current weapons until the beginning of the next player turn, and suffers a D7+(1) damage roll.
Weapons - some generic guns for you to play around with.
Ordinary pistol - one-handed
R12" S1 H6+ B+1 D7+(1) Point Blank Shot
Hand Cannon (powerful pistol, e.g. bolt pistol) - one-handed
R14" S1 H6+/7+ B+2 D4+(4) Power Attack, Point Blank Shot
Uzi or similar machine pistol - one-handed
R10" S3 H7+/8+ B+1 D6+(1) Point Blank Shot
Assault rifle - two-handed
R20" S4 H7+ B+2 D5+(1)
Fitted with an underslung grenade launcher: R8" S1 H2 B0 D3+(3) Explosive (3), Limited Ammo (1)
Shotgun! - two-handed
R12" S1 H5+/7+ B+1 D4+(4) Point Blank Shot (gains +2 to damage rolls when doing so), Close Range Weapon (damage cap is 2 at long range).
Sniper Rifle - two-handed
R60" S1 H5+ B+3 D3+(3) Critical Fatality (something)
Flamethrower - two-handed
R6" S- H- B- D6+(2) Limited Ammo (3). A flamethrower automatically hits all models within range in an arc of up to 90 degrees in front of the firer, friendly or enemy. The firer obviously chooses the size and direction of the arc. If a flamethrower's AOE covers a terrain piece that could be set on fire, the terrain becomes dangerous - any model that fails a dangerous terrain test takes a D6+(2) damage roll.
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Post by dragonlord on Jul 23, 2009 17:05:55 GMT -5
Seems pretty good overall. I agree with most of the points that Adam made as far as critiques go, particularly the non-targeted close combat actions blocking over peoples actions, it just doesn't really make sense in some cases. I also think that 'whack' needs a better name, can't particularly think of one myself at the moment though, 'club' maybe, but that doesn't cover fists particularly well.
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Post by Adam on Jul 25, 2009 9:11:47 GMT -5
Beat Down?
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Post by Oliver on Jul 25, 2009 11:00:25 GMT -5
The idea with the non-targeted actions blocking other models' actions is that the model dodges or evades their opponent's attack - you can only block actions targeted against you with a non-targeted action. Otherwise, knockdown abilities would be massively overpowered, and they need not to be so things like Carnifexes or Giants or whatever can be put in with mediocre Reflexes and still work. Anyway, it's staying in unless playtesting (when that eventually happens) shows it's a problem. When I get around to it i'll probably go with most of your suggestions, although I wouldn't tone down Crippling that much - I might put in a 'Second Wind' rule, where you get a certain number of them to spend per game, and each one allows a single Crippled model to ignore their Cripplage until the start of their next turn. Another, similar rule could be to give each player a certain number of Interrupts per game - they can pause another player's turn at any time (eg. part-way through a charge, to divert the charging model) and perform one action with one model. Combat rounds would not be affected. Possibly the interrupt action would count as that model's action for the next turn, CC actions excepted. I'm still not decided about the setting - post-apocalyptic and fantasy both look fun, and for practical reasons the 40K setting also makes sense. The futuristic ones would need some vehicle rules, however - I saw some really interesting ones here ( www.combatzonechronicles.net/cozo2/xcars.htm ) which i might nick some ideas from. The Combat Zone Chronicles site is pretty interesting, it's got a lot of stuff about making terrain and things. It's associated with a game i think is made by em4. |
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Post by Adam on Jul 25, 2009 15:16:58 GMT -5
The idea with the non-targeted actions blocking other models' actions is that the model dodges or evades their opponent's attack - you can only block actions targeted against you with a non-targeted action. Hmm. I'm still not really convinced with the way the game handles melee. Obviously we'll have to try it out before I can make proper quantified statements about feel, but (from reading the rules) it doesn't feel as hectic or action-y as I'd have thought you'd want. Seems to me you'd spend a lot of the time waiting. It probably works just fine as far as realism goes, and in most in-game situations; it just kind of bothers me that either you successfully get up from knockdown/switch weapons/whatever and nobody attacks anybody, or you stay down on your ass. Again, realistic, but screw realism. ;D I'll stop bitching now and put up some actual constructive suggestions. To help keep combat moving, how about allowing everybody a non-targeted action *and* a targeted one? You then have an opportunity to add in extra abilities, both generic ones and ones for specific models. I'll elucidate. One way to do this is to do what you're doing at the moment, but to allow everyone to perform a non-targeted action before their targeted one. This non-targeted action can't be nullified or nullify anyone else's action (unless specifically stated in the action itself). Another way, which I personally prefer the idea of although it'd take longer, is to do two separate D10+Reflexes rolls. The second one is your normal round of combat, targeted actions all around. The first though, is your non-targeted actions. The *lowest* roller goes first, declares and resolves one action. Then the next chooses and resolves an action, and so on. So you get to pick what you're doing in response to other actions. Then you beat the crap out of each other. Additional actions you could put in include Defensive Stance (makes you harder to hit), Sneak Attack (+x on Reflexes roll, +1 on number of Order of the Stick references), that sort of thing. As an example of model-specific ones, Warlocks could use a buff that enhances other friendly models in the combat with them, or a choking mist that drops everyone else's Defence. Otherwise, knockdown abilities would be massively overpowered, and they need not to be so things like Carnifexes or Giants or whatever can be put in with mediocre Reflexes and still work. Anyway, it's staying in unless playtesting (when that eventually happens) shows it's a problem. When you think about it, though, isn't that what knockdown abilities do in every game? They certainly do in Warmachine. If I fire a Scourge spell at the same target every turn, it'll be on its arse all game long. The trick is to use knockdown sparingly, and automatic knockdown - especially in melee - even more so. As for Carnifexes and vehicles and such, well I find it hard to believe that anything would knock down a Carnifex (or stop it getting up!), and vehicles don't have anything to be knocked down onto, so I'd put in an immunity (vehicles in IF can't be knocked down, for example). When I get around to it i'll probably go with most of your suggestions, although I wouldn't tone down Crippling that much - I might put in a 'Second Wind' rule, where you get a certain number of them to spend per game, and each one allows a single Crippled model to ignore their Cripplage until the start of their next turn. Good idea, more cinematic than nerfing Cripple effects. Another, similar rule could be to give each player a certain number of Interrupts per game - they can pause another player's turn at any time (eg. part-way through a charge, to divert the charging model) and perform one action with one model. Combat rounds would not be affected. Possibly the interrupt action would count as that model's action for the next turn, CC actions excepted. This intrigues me, and depending on how you do it, could be pretty awesome. Can I ask why you want it in the game - do you have a specific reason or do you just think it'd be cool/useful? It's associated with a game i think is made by em4. I looked this up, and you are indeed correct. It's em4 Miniatures that make it. |
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Post by Oliver on Jul 25, 2009 18:38:01 GMT -5
The thing about knockdown abilities not being overpowered and Carnifexes would be that they would have some sort of Reflex-bonussed knockdown ability that affects everyone in base contact (tail swing or similear), and then could have normal attacks that actually get used, without being totally unkillable due to its horrible knockdown abilities.
If you could have a non-targeted and a targeted action each turn, it would make knockdown worthless...
I just thought up the interrupts on the spot, and thought it would be cool for things like having someone block a charge to protect a weak ally, or to let a sniper shoot an enemy who keeps on popping out of cover and shooting, for example. The resource-management keeps it interesting and stops the whole thing getting out of hand.
Your ideas for other combat actions are cool, although the Defensive Stance one might leave little space for Parry abilities for swordy things, and might slow combat down. The Sneak Attack one should probably rely on the model being in the target's rear arc - for this and other reasons, i'll have to put in rules for front and rear arcs when i update it.
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Post by Oliver on Jul 30, 2009 12:01:34 GMT -5
Oh, here's another WSR:
Armour Piercing (X): For the purposes of this weapon's attacks, the target's Armour Bonus is reduced by X, to a minimum of 0.
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Post by Oliver on Jul 30, 2009 19:08:20 GMT -5
Okay, i've got a setting: 1998, fifteen years after the nuclear apocalypse. And the name is changing to [something]: 1998. Right now 'something' is Razor, but that's kind of lame. The nuclear apocalypse is based on a real incident in 1983 that almost led to it in real life, but was averted by the actions of a Russian military officer called Stanislav Petrov. This is the world as it would have been had he not disregarded the satellite reports of American ICBM launches (actually reflected sunlight from high-altitude clouds). Any name suggestions?
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Post by dragonlord on Jul 31, 2009 17:01:57 GMT -5
Sounds ok so far, other than being 15 years post-nuclear apocalypse what sort of world is your alternate 1998 (might help with naming).
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Post by Oliver on Jul 31, 2009 18:19:49 GMT -5
I'm still wondering about that! I'd like Africa to have survived the war better than most other places, and have a faction of African Union troops trying to bring order to the post-nuclear wasteland. Most of the West and East is in ruins, either lawless, run by warlords, or, at best, under the control of small micro-states, most only a few miles across. There are pockets of central government control, but they tend to be just the ruins of the capital city. The armies of NATO and the Soviet Union are both too decimated to be able to hold a great deal of ground or keep order. Large portions of Europe, the American coasts, and the Far East are also uninhabitable due to fallout, so there will be tent cities, shanty towns, and so forth in the bits that weren't so badly affected.
There'll also be troops gone AWOL from the war, who'll be pretty elite, very experienced but not as well-equipped as the AU. I think there'll also be raiders and people defending settlements. Setting it in 1998 restricts the options available in terms of wackiness quite a lot, so the character and gang customisation options will have to be pretty deep - things like leader advantages, veteran skills, big angry dogs, etc. There'll have to be vehicle rules as well, to keep it interesting. I want to steer clear of the mutants-and-zombies thing, but fanatical cultists will be in. Probably power armour, too, although it should be a one-in-a-team thing, and be available only to the military or ex-military factions. Damn, making these things realistic and fun is -hard-.
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Post by Adam on Aug 2, 2009 16:43:13 GMT -5
Power armour does, in fact, exist in some form. For example, there's Trojan armour, the suit that slightly-mad Canadian guy bankrupted himself developing but that is apparently very good power armour. In a wartorn world, technology advances more quickly, so you might have some kind of power armour by then. There's also the possibility of high tech but non-powered armour, strength-enhancing devices (powerfists!) and so on. Names names names... I think 'Dust' already is a postapocalyptic TTG, unfortunately, because Dust: 1998 or Dustbowl: 1998 or something would be quite evocative. How about Shattered: 1998? Burnt: 1998? Something like that. Going back to the rules points from earlier: The thing about knockdown abilities not being overpowered and Carnifexes would be that they would have some sort of Reflex-bonussed knockdown ability that affects everyone in base contact (tail swing or similear), and then could have normal attacks that actually get used, without being totally unkillable due to its horrible knockdown abilities. Not necessarily. You can make the tail swing an attack that targets multiple models, with critical knockdown rather than auto knockdown (I think that'd be a bit fairer, otherwise Carnifexes would be utterly lethal). Alternatively, you can make the tail a weapon that attacks alongside the Carnifex's other limbs, hitting one model. On top of either of those, you can make the tail only able to attack in the Carnifex's back arc, which makes sense. So it's harder to surround the thing, but the 'fex can't easily use its tail offensively to knock down targets (a Carnifex's weakness would be hard-to-hit enemy models, I daresay). If you could have a non-targeted and a targeted action each turn, it would make knockdown worthless... Not really. Standing up can debuff you temporarily, for example. |
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Post by dragonlord on Aug 3, 2009 11:01:33 GMT -5
Quite a nice setting you've got there. Perhaps Australia might be another place that's relatively unscathed, and is perhaps the more advanced faction that might have things like basic power armour, they'd be much lower on numbers than the AU though. That and or the Swiss, they do have enough nuclear shelters for the entire population and a higher rate of gun ownership than anywhere else in the world (including the US).
This is probably already a name for something else, but how about New Dawn: 1998, nicely captures a world struggling to rebuild after an apocalypse.
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Post by Oliver on Aug 3, 2009 13:27:02 GMT -5
I hadn't thought of the Swiss, they're definitely in. IIRC Trojan armour wasn't powered, it was just a full-body suit of quality armour, although there are powered exoskeletons in development, and there was at least one around then (it ran off a chainsaw motor, and they didn't dare put anyone in it for fear of what it would do to them if it went wrong).
The Carnifex (or equivalent, i'm sure there can be some justification for including something like that in the setting, maybe a sort of Jurassic Park-esque secret military project) only being able to use its tail in the back arc is a good idea, but i'd like to see how the current CC system works before altering it.
With regards to names, New Dawn 1998 (i think it scans better without the colon) is good, but seems a little too hopeful, whilst Shattered and Burnt seem like they need a noun in the name. Rare Earth: 1998 might maaaybe work, or Radio Free 1998 (a reference to Radio Free Europe) but might suggest overweening totalitarianism rather than the chaotic situation in the setting. Perhaps i'll flesh out the setting and factions a bit more before trying to sort out a name for it.
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Post by Adam on Aug 3, 2009 14:31:58 GMT -5
Rare Earth: 1998 is good. (I think it looks good with the colon myself, or most of the names do. You're right about New Dawn 1998 and Radio Free 1998 being better without it though.) Ooh, I've got another one. Vitrified: 1998. I don't think this or Shattered need a noun, actually - they're solid enough 2-3 syllable words and are evocative enough on their own. Burnt does lack a bit of impact though. As to the Carnifex equivalent... you could also do it using a radiation-mutated version of a current animal that, through chance, gained more beneficial mutations than it got debilitating cancers, and rose to the top of the "big stuff" food chain. Trained to fight and equipped with crude armour or weapons by one of the human factions. Including monsters in (one of) the lower-tech armies would provide a nice counterfoil to the heavier firepower of opposing factions. An example would be the Titan Gladiator and particularly the Rhinodon from PP's Skorne range, as what an elephant might mutate into given the right flavour of gamma ray. I could see a gorilla becoming something like the Rhinodon as well, only with patchy fur and an apelike face. Or you could look at komodo dragons, big cats, rhinoceri, and similar large creatures. Cavalry could ride strange mutated beasts too - not just mutated horses, you could put them on large lizards, felines or even wolves. I'd suggest trying to avoid two-metre-long insects, those would probably collapse under their own weight unless they had endoskeletons, and I can't see any amount of radiation providing *that* much mutation, not in just fifteen years anyway. Although if you're going to put in secret military projects, feel free to include units of biomechanical scorpion-tanks and spider riders and stuff... |
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Post by Oliver on Aug 3, 2009 17:44:54 GMT -5
I'm probably going to keep it plausible, so a lot of the mutated stuff is likely to be out. Cavalry is in though, it's pretty popular in places like Somalia that are poor and, let's face it, pretty post-apocalyptic already right now. Also, it's going to be harder to get hold of fuel in Alternative 1998. Here follows a list of the types of aberrant things that might be in:
Super-Crocs: Gigantic crocodiles. Those things are scary enough normal-sized, a little gigantism is permitted. Not entirely sure how they would be controlled, though. Possibly have a Super-Croc player and a human player, and the Super-Croc player gets to basically Deep Strike their crocodiles into terrain the humans can't see into.
Cybears: Terrifying cross-breed man-bears, developed by the Russian military. As intelligent as humans, and with opposable thumbs, but large and clumsy due to the fact that they still have paws. Also, they're eight feet tall and can kill you to death.
Swarms of Rats: Does what it says on the tin. They get more abilities - mainly Knockdown and extra attacks - the more rats there are in base contact. Probably an environmental hazard rather than an enemy thing. They don't even have to be mutated, just very, very hungry.
That probably does it for the muties - i might think of more when making factions or whatever, but to go beyond a couple of species starts to seem a bit far-fetched.
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Post by dragonlord on Aug 3, 2009 19:55:45 GMT -5
As you say cavalry should definitely be around, possibly include camels/elephants as well for some of the factions.
The super-crocs sound ok, they could just be an environmental thing like the swarms of rats. One interesting idea if you want to include some slightly more deadly wildlife is you could have one (or more) of the factions have access to some kind of chemical that makes certain receptive animals go on the rampage. That would then give you, for example, a herd of bezerk killer hippos, without any mutation necessary (I use hippos as they're actually very dangerous if upset in real life).
As far as the rats go there are already mutated giant rats (super-rats) the size of cats living the sewers of most major cities so you definitely fine with the rat swarms.
I'm not so sure about the cybears, I think having the intelligence being a cybernetic enhancement would be more believable.
I agree that to keep it believable the mutants have to be kept to a minimum.
On names, how about a combination of some of those suggested, Shattered Dawn: 1998 or Burnt Dawn: 1998 both sound reasonable I think, and are slightly more grim. Burnt Earth: 1998 or Scorched Earth: 1998 would also work.
Not necessarily, after all 500 million years ago 2m long insects were all over the place, nonetheless I don't think giant insects would be a good idea.
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Post by Adam on Aug 4, 2009 8:59:16 GMT -5
I have no idea why none of us thought of this before. It's an extremely suitable name. Check nobody else has used it before, mind, as it's a relevant-enough phrase that someone may well have got there first. |
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Post by Oliver on Aug 4, 2009 11:45:25 GMT -5
Scorched Earth was already used for a shareware artillery game from the early 90s, unfortunately. However, Shattered Earth: 1998 is perfect! The problem with the 2m-long insects would be the oxygen content of the air, not whether they could support themselves. The Rampaging Hippos of Death, however, is a concept whose hour has come. AU Federal Army: Exotic Weapons Division can have hippos fitted with radio-controlled shock/drug-injector collars. Naturally, they go on a rampage if the controller is incapacitated or the signal jammed.
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I think some of the special rules might warrant relying on to-hit rolls instead of damage rolls. Particularly Critical Fatality, and possibly Knockdown.
you stop targeting other models. With the current wording, you might end up going on forever.
