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Post by Adam on Jan 3, 2010 13:23:41 GMT -5
Dammit. *works one out* Call him 32.
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Post by Oliver on Jan 4, 2010 18:28:38 GMT -5
I notice the characters don't have options for Terminator armour (or a jetpack for the Chaplain). Is this deliberate, or is it waiting for this list to get playtested, like the Traits?
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Post by Adam on Jan 5, 2010 8:38:33 GMT -5
It's both. I'm probably going to link characters' wargear options to the trait system anyway. There are actually three options I technically should provide per character (bike, jump pack and Termie armour), not to mention a way to squeeze a character into a drop pod alongside a unit. The jetpack is a straight-up upgrade with no downsides, which bothers me slightly, but I'm including it because it looks cool and Rob's Captain has one. The bike is probably going to be likewise, although given the rarity of SM bike characters I can comfortably make that one trait-linked. As for Terminator armour, why would you put that on a character in IF? You can't run... so that'll be another trait-linked one.
(Also, on a more opinionated note, characters in Terminator armour look really stupid. No, honestly. The jump pack Chaplain is awesome, but the only Terminator-armoured character I've seen that looks halfway non-silly is the Chaos Lord, and he's mostly redeemed by his kai gun. Nice model, but my vision of a heroic, skilled warrior doesn't really correlate with wearing armour that doubles your width and cripples your dexterity.)
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Post by dragonlord on Jan 5, 2010 9:04:30 GMT -5
The jetpack may be nothing but an upgrade in terms of effectiveness, but in 40k at least, and I imagine in IF too, they aren't cheap, so it's a balance as to whether you think it will be useful enough in your army to pay the points for it. The other downside in 40k is that I don't think jump infantry characters can join squads of normal infantry, but that doesn't come in in IF.
On terminator armour on characters I would disagree that it cripples your dexterity, I admit that a massive fist or blade fingers are not particularly useful for activities other than their intended purpose of killing people in graphic fashions but while the armour in and of itself might be a bit restricting on dexterity I think 'crippling' is a bit over the top. For space marines I would agree that in most circumstances I would expect a space marine commander to be wearing power armour, wearing terminator armour would be a situational thing, in some specialised circumstances it would be appropriate. Lysander and Belial, both being commanders that are usually leading terminators it makes sense for them to be in terminator armour. For Chaos Lords in my mind it is partly a prestige thing, a chaos lord got to where he is by being bigger and scarier than all of the other chaos space marines below him, a little bit like an Ork Warboss, so wearing armour that accentuates how big and scary he is makes perfect sense.
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Post by Adam on Jan 5, 2010 14:31:39 GMT -5
The jetpack may be nothing but an upgrade in terms of effectiveness, but in 40k at least, and I imagine in IF too, they aren't cheap, so it's a balance as to whether you think it will be useful enough in your army to pay the points for it. The other downside in 40k is that I don't think jump infantry characters can join squads of normal infantry, but that doesn't come in in IF. I'm fairly sure unit types don't restrict squads a character can join, it just slows him down if he's in an infantry unit. Yeah, jetpacks aren't cheap and all that, but their existence is magnified in IF, where your ability to move sideways is actually much more important than in 40K. Bear in mind that not only will the jetpack boost the model's Speed to 8 (with the bonus from Yonder Lies Glory), but allow it to move out of combat with most enemies, generally a much-vaunted ability on Heroes because it lets them escape unfavourable matchups (which is almost everything). It also allows him to move 16" before unleashing some useful ability, which I don't have any particular problem with, but which is a massive advantage not present in 40K jetpackers. Essentially, while jump infantry in 40K are just units that get into combat a turn or two earlier than everyone else (at the risk of being prioritised by the enemy's shooting), are better at chasing down enemy units, and are better at counter-charging by hiding behind the main line, jump infantry in Infinite Frontier are incredibly versatile units able to pick and choose their targets and their positions on the table, able to hunt down and engage slower units and then run the hell away when the opponent responds with backup. ...Hence my reservations. You see what I mean? Having a character with a jump pack means he can give his support pretty much anywhere next turn. You don't have to worry about being engaged, other models being in the way, or anything else; in effect it takes out quite a lot of the difficulties and subtleties of Heroism. At the same time, you don't want to make the upgrade *insanely* expensive because it doesn't add anything of additional value to the Hero, just makes him easier to use and easier to keep alive (tempered slightly by the fact that he's also easier to throw mindlessly at the enemy, which with Heroes tends to lead to their instant obliteration). On terminator armour on characters I would disagree that it cripples your dexterity, I admit that a massive fist or blade fingers are not particularly useful for activities other than their intended purpose of killing people in graphic fashions but while the armour in and of itself might be a bit restricting on dexterity I think 'crippling' is a bit over the top. Yeah, I worded it badly; I don't know if there is a word for what I meant. Imagine trying to, say, fence while wearing Terminator armour. That's what I was getting at. While Terminator armour is probably just fine for powerfisting tanks, and just what the doctor ordered when it comes to laying down mobile assault cannon fire, it's not going to do your WS6 much good when duelling with the enemy commander. It's always bothered me that characters with Terminator armour suffer no downsides whatsoever, despite the armour's apparent slowness and the sheer impractical shape of the design. Lysander and Belial, both being commanders that are usually leading terminators it makes sense for them to be in terminator armour. Yeah. That suggests its presence as a trait-related upgrade. It strikes me that if my trait system is anything like the Chaos one's, the siege chapter and Deathwing setups could fit nicely into the same spoke, with the Deathwing being the extreme version. Alternately, I suppose, Deathwing (or 1st Company) could itself be a trait, switching some of the Elite units into Troops and removing or restricting the normal troops choices. This gives you more versatility in the other traits of your army, meaning it'll match up more accurately to what normal Dark Angels look like. For Chaos Lords in my mind it is partly a prestige thing, a chaos lord got to where he is by being bigger and scarier than all of the other chaos space marines below him, a little bit like an Ork Warboss, so wearing armour that accentuates how big and scary he is makes perfect sense. With Chaos Lords it's a bit different - it could easily be a Chaotic gift or something. I doubt Lords will have a Terminator armour option, but they will have the +1 Armour and Invulnerable (X) available, in the shape of good ol' Daemon Armour and Daemonic Aura.
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Post by Oliver on Jan 6, 2010 9:44:32 GMT -5
Fluffwise, it could be that the reason Terminator armour is so prized is that it actually does allow freedom of movement despite having the same weight and dimensions as a small car. Think about it - any fool can put bigger motors and thicker plating on a suit of power armour, but to make it move with the same speed and accuracy would be much more difficult.
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Post by Adam on Jan 6, 2010 10:44:52 GMT -5
Think about it - any fool can put bigger motors and thicker plating on a suit of power armour Well, not really, this is the Imperium. You're right, though. OK, no downsides other than the inability to make movement actions (which is still pretty bad on a Hero).
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