Space Marines

[Adam]

So, time to have a look at everybody's favourite 40K Noob Boot Camp Army: the Spess Marienz Space Marines. As any of you might know, I don't really like Space Marines much. Typically, they're boring to play against, irritatingly beloved by their parent company, and they're absolutely everywhere. 4th edition Chaos follow suit, too. Instead, though, of gimping the Marines I want to make them into an army I can like.

There are some aspects of SM theme and fluff I can get behind. I'm as big a fan of power armour as any other sci-fi lover. I like the Black Templars - they actually pay attention to the "These are brainwashed psychotic religious zealots" part of Space Marines and don't try and turn them into father figures in blue, or worse, superstitious alcoholic vikings. Blood Angels also fit into the 40K theme fairly well, even if their new army list completely misrepresents them. Like most 40K fans, I watched the preview gameplay videos of that third-person SM combat game Relic are making and thought 'holy crap awesome'; I also thought 'that's how Marines should really be'. Finally, I like the Deathwing as an on-table army, and have in fact recently bought 1750 points' worth, even if the models are actually AT-43 Therians representing a new phase of Necrons who use the rules for Terminators...

What does all this point to?
- Religious zeal as an excuse for movement spells, etc.
- Brutal shock troops that surgically attack portions of the enemy army and carve their way through.
- Tactical placement of units followed by good old-fashioned murder.
- Tough, powerful, elite and low in number, like the fluff suggests.

With this in mind, here's my design for the basic Space Marine Tactical Combat Squad. That's combat squad as in the half-units the new list has; I realise it makes the name sound rather pretentious, but it's necessary, as there's a way to get 10-man units.

Sp:4 Sk:4 Ar:14 Fo:2 Ac:2 Sw:8
Unit size 5 - 30 points
Weaponry: bolter, combat knife. Sergeant has a chainsword and bolt pistol instead.
- Bolter (normal) - Rn:12" Pr:5 Burst Fire (2)
- Bolter (Metal Storm) - Rn:8" Pr:5 Explosive
- Bolt pistol - Rn:8" Pr:5
- Chainsword - Rn:Melee Pr:6
- Combat knife - Rn:Melee Pr:4
Assault: Gain Charge on run actions, as long as they began the activation unengaged and end the run action at least 1.5x their Speed away from their starting position.
Born for War, Brawler, Veteran as long as the Sergeant is alive, instantly die to wounds from Power 10+ weapons

Tactical Squad: When deploying, you may combine each Tactical Combat Squad with a single Devastator Combat Squad provided the Devastator squad has no more than one heavy weapon. They combine into a full 10-man Tactical Squad and are one unit for the entirety of the game. Models from the Devastator Squad lose their [Insert Dev-only ability here] special rule.

And some more rules - the sarge should have access to vows or prayers or whatever, choosing one from the army list, that enhance a squad in various interesting ways. These of course carry over to the extra boyz too if you make a tactical squad, but the Devastators will lose their own special rules.

Still debating on whether they should be Speed 5 and whether Metal Storm should be Power 4 (both fairly likely).

Why buy combat squads separately? Well, it allows you to take a different mix - eschew the heavy weapons completely in a CC-themed army, or take lots of marines that aren't quite so good in melee but have better guns.

So, let's do the unit list.

- Force Commander: The toughest and most versatile Hero. Has movement abilities and so on built for a tactical, balanced army. Also has access to more weapon loadouts. SM heroes will likely cost a similar amount of points to other armies' heroes - maybe a little higher - which will make them relatively cheap, as they won't cost much more than another unit. Can take Terminator armour.

- Librarian: Defensive Hero. The Librarian debuffs enemy squads and protects your Marines. Best with a shooty force. Also provides a measure of psychic defence (the psychic hood is not going to be nearly as good in this ruleset, nor are Librarians going to be the all-round psychic domination engines that they are now; instead they'll actually be interesting). The Librarian will also have a strong psychic attack, but only one. It may well be usable only once-per-turn.

- Chaplain: Offensive Hero. The Chaplain is the opposite of the Librarian - he buffs friendly units and encourages melee. Chaplain + Force Commander will be a potent combination for larger games. Can also have a jump pack, lending him a measure of Assault Squads' disruptive abilities. (Because the model of the Chaplain with jump pack and power fist is just awesome.)

- Tactical Squad - See above.

- Devastator Squad - Like a Tac Squad, but with two special/heavy weapons. SM heavy weapons are a lot smaller than the versions you get on vehicles or Guard heavy weapon teams, and I think it's time that actually showed up in the rules. They will have a range of about 2/3rds that of the bigger versions, and a slightly lowered damage output, but will be more mobile - probably allowing normal movement but disallowing running in the same turn as they're fired - although unusable in close combat. As such, an army heavy on Devastators will play like Deathwing, in their mobile-firepower role, as opposed to a gunline. Devastators should have another special rule as well (it may in fact be a rule allowing them to move up to their Speed and fire weapons with the Heavy Weapon rule, so if they're used in a tac squad you're restricted to being slow in order to shoot, with the heavy weapon guy only moving 2").

- Scout Squad - Should cost about half as much as a SM squad, for use in spending spare points. Much less resilient than Marines in full power armour. Deploy via Commando. Useful for suppressing the enemy and supporting the Marines. Faster-moving. In some armies (Black Templar-esque builds), Scouts with shotguns or pistol+CCWs can join Tactical squads in the same way as Devastators can.

- Assault Squad - 3 men with chainswords and pistols, expandable up to 5 if you have a jump-pack Chaplain. Can do the thing they do in Dawn of War 2 where they land and send everybody flying. Deal lots of damage, possibly via the Onslaught rule, and come with melta bombs to help destroy vehicles.

- Veteran Squad - 3 men. Veterans are a semi-hero unit, a bit like MagnaGuards or Queen Amidala. They also have access to special weapons, better CCWs and more boltgun ammunition types, although this can make them expensive fast.

- Terminator Squad - 3 men, expandable up to 5 if you have a Terminator-armoured Force Commander. Slow, tough as hell, able to deepstrike in. Carry assault cannons and the like as well as their powerfists. Despite also being members of the 1st Company, they aren't there to lead the army, they're there to kick ass and soak up damage (I'm thinking Armour 15 and none of that pansy instadeath-to-Pr10; they may even get Fortitude 3 or some other way of making them even tougher), so they have little to none of the Veterans' role as semi-heroes.

- Techmarine - Elite lone model, fixes vehicles and little else. I wouldn't bother including him to be honest, except that the models look cool. Maybe if he grants anti-vehicle bonuses to other Marines he'd be more interesting/useful.

- Bikes - 3 men. Fast and hard to kill, precision-damage unit, like most bikes. Unlike most bikes, SM bikers can be good in melee or at range. Dual bolters put out three shots instead of two (being mounted on a handlebar is a bit inflexible for Multiple Attack).

- Transports - Rhinos are Unit Supports with enough room for a 10-man unit. Razorbacks likewise, but can only hold five guys. Land Raiders can hold five Terminators or 10 normal guys, but aren't attached to units at all.

- Other Vehicles - Like anyone else's vehicles; a set of model and weapon stats and little else. I'll be including the variants, because there's no reason to exclude stuff people have paid money for (feel free to glower mentally at Gav Thorpe for taking all the Chaos away from CSM), although I doubt I'll bother doing the Forge World Land Raiders as I've never seen one for real. Vindicators may have a 'blast a path' type rule that allows other models to ignore terrain when they're following behind it.

...I think that covers it. Feedback os gwelwch yn dda.

[dragonlord]

While I may agree with you on not liking the 'father figures in blue' image of the Space Marines typically portrayed by the Ultramarines I don't think that you should play too heavily on the 'psychotic religious zealots' angle either. Some chapters do fall into the psychotic or religious zealot boxes but the majority of chapters are supposed to hold more to the old pre-Heresy ideologies which did not assign the Emperor divinity. Of course that doesn't mean that they can't be psychotic or zealous, just not necessarily the 'religious' part.
Anyway enough of my rambling and on to the stuff that really matters.

Using the Combat squad as the basic unit makes sense, the current Marine codices do that to some extent by making squads only available in 5's or 10's. Will you also enable two combat squads to combine to make a tactical squad?
The special rule available through the sergeant is an interesting idea, but as I said I'd avoid playing the religion card too strongly (besides anything else the sisters of battle would run the risk of just being female space marines when you get round to them).

The heroes sound reasonable, allowing at least one of them to take a bike might be an interesting option.

I approve of making the man portable heavy weapons of the devastators slightly lower powered than the vehicle/IG heavy weapon team versions but with limited ability to move and fire.

The techmarine providing anti-vehicle bonuses would be an interesting idea.

Everything else sounds fine.

[Adam]

Sept 16, 2009 16:41:17 GMT -5 dragonlord said:

Some chapters do fall into the psychotic or religious zealot boxes but the majority of chapters are supposed to hold more to the old pre-Heresy ideologies which did not assign the Emperor divinity.

Really? Ah, yeah, I seem to recall something now about them seeing him as a father figure, a great man to be idolised, but not a god. Fair enough. I'll bear that in mind when writing the list.

Sept 16, 2009 16:41:17 GMT -5 dragonlord said:

Using the Combat squad as the basic unit makes sense, the current Marine codices do that to some extent by making squads only available in 5's or 10's. Will you also enable two combat squads to combine to make a tactical squad?

Yeah, that's why I did it. As to combining two tactical combat squads into a 10-man unit, that'd involve two Sergeants, so it won't happen. Unless you just missed the bit about combining Devastator and Tactical combat squads into 10-man units. That gives you a full unit with sergeant, special weapon and heavy weapon.

Sept 16, 2009 16:41:17 GMT -5 dragonlord said:

The special rule available through the sergeant is an interesting idea, but as I said I'd avoid playing the religion card too strongly (besides anything else the sisters of battle would run the risk of just being female space marines when you get round to them).

Fair enough. What I could do, actually, is change the trait system slightly (I'm going to use a fleshed-out trait system to provide army customisation, at least in SM and Chaos who're supposed to have several different army lists each, and probably in other armies beyond) so that the Space Marines' traits mostly affect the abilities Veteran Sergeants can buy. Veterans and Terminators, being part of the 1st Company, get these abilities by default as well, meaning that everybody except Devastators has easy access to them, and Devs can get it by forming ten-man squads. I guess a more careful, military force like the Ultramarines or Salamanders would have tactical ones, while psychos and zealots would have buff abilities making them harder/better/faster/stronger. (I had to.)

As to the Sisters of Battle, they'll be different enough - mostly because they'll be in the Inquisition list, a completely different army. Inquisition are going to be the psychic mindscrew list, the Sororitas and Storm Troopers holding the enemy at bay, while the Inquisitors disrupt the army so they wander into the blades of expensive-but-deadly hammer units like Grey Knights and Assassins. Either way, Sororitas will be cheaper and more killable than Marines, but will have very strong or unusual faith powers, whereas Vet Sarge powers are nowhere near being game-turners by themselves.

Sept 16, 2009 16:41:17 GMT -5 dragonlord said:

The heroes sound reasonable, allowing at least one of them to take a bike might be an interesting option.

Yeah, I did consider that. Should've put it in. I think the Chaplain, as it suits him the most. That'll then give a character that allows five-man bike units, too.

For the record, there will be army-twisting special characters. Samael and Belial will be in there as facilitators for Ravenwing and Deathwing armies respectively, making bikes or Terminators count as Troops for army selection purposes, and with tactical powers suited to these units. I'm not sure who else I'll bother putting in; most of the other special characters are just ordinary force commanders with one army-buffing special rule, a poor substitute for the traits system, and can be easily represented by an appropriately equipped captain and the right selection of traits.

Come to think of it, I may even do that with Ravenwing and Deathwing - just make them extreme traits, and allow you to pick your own characters, or eschew them altogether. I know for certain that when I was writing my Deathwing army list I really wished I didn't have to take Belial; I could've conveniently dropped him and the army'd have fit into 1500 points (before I added the third Dreadnought, that is). He's completely uninteresting, and I'd much rather have his points value in Terminators, or at least a Chaplain to add extra punch to my lightning claw squad. Anyway.

Sept 16, 2009 16:41:17 GMT -5 dragonlord said:

I approve of making the man portable heavy weapons of the devastators slightly lower powered than the vehicle/IG heavy weapon team versions but with limited ability to move and fire.

Good ;D

Sept 16, 2009 16:41:17 GMT -5 dragonlord said:

The techmarine providing anti-vehicle bonuses would be an interesting idea.

Alright, I'll try that then. It'd certainly make up for the general lack of heavy weapons in most SM armies, although if that becomes a huge problem, I'll give them grenades.

[Oliver]

You could have the Techmarine allowing you to take a servitor or two - they have to stay in coherence with him but they're basically a gun on legs. And he can repair critical damage effects on vehicles. You could even make the Techmarine the character with the bike - it'd make his repair abilities significantly more useful because he can keep up with the tanks. Just throwing that out there.

Also, how are mixed units of Scouts and Marines going to work? As I recall we abandoned mixed-unit rules for the putative Chaos Mortals list...

[Adam]

Servitors maybe. Mixed armour would get a bit annoying there. Good idea on giving him the bike option, although actually making a bike-riding Techmarine would be a royal pain in the arse.

As to the neophytes, I'm going to cheat. Black Templars special rules give Neophytes Armour 14 and Swiftness 8 instead of Ar13/Sw9 (or even Ar12/Sw10). So they match the marines.

[Oliver]

The servitors could use the bodyguard rules - targetted separately, but activate at the same time, and the Techmarine can palm off wounds onto them (if that's too powerful, maybe he can only do it on a 6+ or whatever.)

If the BT Neophytes are the same Ar and Sw as the marines, then what's the difference between Neophytes and Marines? Just a point or two of Skill? And will they have the same Fortitude? because that could get confusing. I'm for allocating shots to Neophytes and Marines according to their proportions in the unit, and then rolling hits and wounds for each group separately. Or you could bring down their Swiftness to match the Marines, since they're in a squad with them and so won't be able to be as stealthy; and then you can just divide hits proportionally between the two troop types, and roll to wound separately.

[dragonlord]

I believe I have before suggested handling mixed armour in the same way as in BFG, hits that only exceed the armour of one type of troop can only effect that type, hits that exceed both can effect either. Or am I missing something that stops that working?

[Adam]

Sept 27, 2009 14:39:56 GMT -5 Oliver said:

The servitors could use the bodyguard rules - targetted separately, but activate at the same time, and the Techmarine can palm off wounds onto them (if that's too powerful, maybe he can only do it on a 6+ or whatever.)

Yeah, that could work.

Sept 27, 2009 14:39:56 GMT -5 Oliver said:

If the BT Neophytes are the same Ar and Sw as the marines, then what's the difference between Neophytes and Marines? Just a point or two of Skill? And will they have the same Fortitude? because that could get confusing. I'm for allocating shots to Neophytes and Marines according to their proportions in the unit, and then rolling hits and wounds for each group separately. Or you could bring down their Swiftness to match the Marines, since they're in a squad with them and so won't be able to be as stealthy; and then you can just divide hits proportionally between the two troop types, and roll to wound separately.

Skill 3, Fortitude 1, different weapons, different special rules. They're still Space Marines, after all. (Bear in mind they only get the Ar14/Sw8 when they join marine squads, it's a Black Templars vow-esque special rule.) Although how's having Fortitude 1 in any way more confusing than a mixed armour rule?

What if you have 8 hits (or shots) when the squad is 4 marines and 3 neophytes? Who takes the extra hit? What about 5:4? 5:2? 4:1? 3:10? Dealing with extra cases in a realistic/consistent way is just annoying and complicated.

On the other hand...

Sept 27, 2009 15:59:22 GMT -5 dragonlord said:

I believe I have before suggested handling mixed armour in the same way as in BFG, hits that only exceed the armour of one type of troop can only effect that type, hits that exceed both can effect either. Or am I missing something that stops that working?

...this could easily work. You mean that if the Neophytes are Armour 13, D10+Power rolls of 13 wound the Neophytes and then rolls of 14+ are allocated as normal? Since Neophytes are Fortitude 1, this'll work fine; the normal wound allocation system won't distort the casualties.

I think we can do this. Roll to hit against the unit's minimum Swiftness, then use this for the wound rolls. (Doing this for both Swiftness and Armour might get complicated, leaving you with wounds that have to go on the Space Marines, wounds that have to go on the Neophytes, and wounds that can go on either.)

I'm also thinking of making Charge not work if you're slowed by terrain, and for Space Marines, making it one of the Sergeant's unit ability upgrades - so not everyone has it all the time.

[dragonlord]

Rolling to hit against the minimum swiftness and using my suggestion for the wound rolls does seem like the least complicated way of doing it, and makes sense from a dynamics point of view.

[Oliver]

Sept 27, 2009 15:59:22 GMT -5 dragonlord said:

I believe I have before suggested handling mixed armour in the same way as in BFG, hits that only exceed the armour of one type of troop can only effect that type, hits that exceed both can effect either. Or am I missing something that stops that working?

The problem with this is that if you've got, for the sake of argument, a model with Armour 12 in a unit with nine Armour 14 models, and they get shot at, 20% of the hits made on the unit are only going to be able to harm that guy, so he's going to die at least twice as fast as he otherwise would.

What I would do would be to roll to hit against the majority (or the lowest in case of a tie) Swiftness, and then allocate hits proportionally, with any leftover going onto the majority Armour value, then the next most common, and so on, with no model taking more than one extra hit compared to any other. It sounds a bit complicated, but i think it's easier than it looks. It'd be worth playtesting each suggestion to compare them, anyway.

[Adam]

Sept 30, 2009 9:59:35 GMT -5 Oliver said:

The problem with this is that if you've got, for the sake of argument, a model with Armour 12 in a unit with nine Armour 14 models, and they get shot at, 20% of the hits made on the unit are only going to be able to harm that guy, so he's going to die at least twice as fast as he otherwise would.

It's a point. My instinct would say that, in practice, that doesn't unduly matter. We are talking D10s here, where the chance of rolling a specific number is quite a bit lower than it is on a D6, and units in Infinite Frontier don't really put out a lot of shots at the same time. The 20% difference might well only cause one wound to automatically hit the vulnerable guy; he dies, and the problem goes away without revealing a skew in the maths.

Sept 30, 2009 9:59:35 GMT -5 Oliver said:

What I would do would be to roll to hit against the majority (or the lowest in case of a tie) Swiftness, and then allocate hits proportionally, with any leftover going onto the majority Armour value, then the next most common, and so on, with no model taking more than one extra hit compared to any other. It sounds a bit complicated, but i think it's easier than it looks. It'd be worth playtesting each suggestion to compare them, anyway.

We're stuck between a rock and a hard place here, I think. The BFG system is smooth but runs the risk of overabstraction in certain situations that might break the game a bit. The 40K-style system is indeed fairly smooth in game, but actually runs the same risk. (I'll consider the proportional system a little later.) Think about it. Let's say you roll on a particular Swiftness value, and allocate hits to the highest Armour first. It's a Black Templars unit, with 5 Marines and 10 Neophytes.

So they get shot at. An ordinary 40K infantry squad puts out between 10 and 20 shots at Skill 3 or 4, with a -1 for Burst Fire. Skill 4-1 and 10 shots, against Swiftness 8, lands you six hits; Skill 3-1 and 20 shots lands 10 hits. Either way, despite being outnumbered 2:1, the Space Marines take five hits. The Neophytes take one hit from the CSM bolters, and five hits from the Guardsmen's lasguns. The Space Marines probably won't be unduly bothered by five hits from basic weapons - a wound off one of them - but it all adds up.

So let's look at it the other way. The-majority-armour-type-gets-hit-first,-or-the-highest-if-there-is-a-tie (realistic this system may be, but it's a pain in the neck to describe). This time, the Neophytes take ALL the hits. Despite being huge, obvious targets, slower than the Neophytes, carrying more deadly weaponry, and constituting a third of the unit, the Initiates stand calmly as the noobs take all the punishment. In battle as in Counter-Strike, maybe.

Now for the proportional system. This is also a pain in the neck to describe rules-wise in a clear, inflexible and concise manner. It might work fine if you have a squad like the above, where you simply hit two Neophytes per Marine, but what about after losing one neophyte? You've a 9:5 squad. Unless you take exactly 14 hits, there's no way you can make use of that. You can't hit 1.8 Neophytes per Marine. So the 40K-style system kicks in again. And what if you do have 14 hits or more? Well, since you have to allocate one hit to everybody before wrapping around, the 40K-style system does exactly the same thing without additional confusing verbiage.

Of course, the proportional system works differently when there *is* an integer-expressible proportion, but you can't expect the average gamer to want to cancel down fractions in his head just to resolve some shooting, and there are very few such proportions that'll fit inside, say, five hits. I can think of 1:1, 2:1, 3:1, 4:1 and 3:2. (2:2 of course cancels down to 1:1.) If your squad happens to be in one of those proportions for the entirety of a game, then it's probably a Techmarine with four servitors who's losing one a turn. Apart from him, it's not going to happen, I'm afraid.

The advantage of the BFG-style system is that it doesn't involve any allocation at all. Use the lowest Swiftness. If the damage roll's good enough to wound anything, the defender can place it anywhere he wants. If the damage roll's only good enough to wound the lower-armoured guys, the defender places it therein. I think in the case of Black Templars, it'll work fine for a very simple reason. Black Templar units have a huge amount of close-range asskickery because of one thing - Neophytes. 10 Neophytes cost about the same as 5 Marines, but come with twice the number of combat knives. Losing two Neophytes loses you twice the number of attacks as losing one Marine. So the defender's going to allocate wounds to Marines in order not to lose lots of attack power. On top of that, Neophytes only have one or two fewer points of Armour than the Initiates anyway, so it doesn't make that much difference.

[dragonlord]

I can see yossariansmith's point about the single model of lower armour in a unit of higher armour but as Adam says with D10s and the lower number of shots fired by units in IF this is not so much of a problem. In addition to which I can't think of many situations in which you would be likely to end up with this situation (a Tau ethereal attached to another Tau unit is the only one that springs to mind), single higher armour models in a unit of lower armour are probably more likely but wouldn't present any such problems and where you have roughly equal numbers of both armour values I don't see a particular problem. Anyway so I still support the BFG-style solution, I would be perfectly open to playtesting the alternatives though.

[Oliver]

Looking at it that way, I concede the point. Units that need to work differently than to the BFG system (if there are any) could always just have their own special rules, after all (maybe a generalisation of Bodyguard, as per the Techmarine). The only problem I can foresee is that a low-Swiftness member of a squad could be a massive liability.

Are you going to let the Librarian have Terminator armour? Also, what semi-heroic things are you planning to have the Veterans do?

[Adam]

Oct 3, 2009 15:24:33 GMT -5 Oliver said:

Looking at it that way, I concede the point. Units that need to work differently than to the BFG system (if there are any) could always just have their own special rules, after all (maybe a generalisation of Bodyguard, as per the Techmarine). The only problem I can foresee is that a low-Swiftness member of a squad could be a massive liability.

Hm. I guess he'll die first...? Units with such (single) models can probably have a special rule allowing enemy fire to target the higher Swiftness provided the unit size is above X.

Oct 3, 2009 15:24:33 GMT -5 Oliver said:

Are you going to let the Librarian have Terminator armour? Also, what semi-heroic things are you planning to have the Veterans do?

The idea of a Librarian in Termi armour seems a bit silly to me, so I dunno yet. Perhaps only if you have a Termi Captain already... nah, that'd be fairly useless. I guess so, then.

Veterans... not sure yet. Put up ideas if you've got them, but probably stat buffs (+1 speed non-stackable Heroic Charge 6" pulse* is a must) and similar fairly basic synergy abilities. Once per game Command, too, or perhaps Amidala-style Command, with the short range.

[dragonlord]

I think the primary point of Librarians in terminator armour is that it allows them to teleport in with a terminator squad. That and there isn't a particularly logical reason why one sort of senior marine should be allowed to take terminator armour and others not.

[Adam]

Yeah... oh yeah, Terminators can teleport, can't they. Need to put that in, too.

[Adam]

A new thought for Marines that came to mind yesterday. For a while it's been nagging me that Marines won't actually use their combat knives or whatever in melee, because their bolters are more effective. So why not go the other way and allow them to use a close-up mixed-weapon technique? While in close combat, Space Marines' bolters can generate Onslaught attacks and be used for Duel actions. The Onslaught attacks are made using their combat knives (Pr4 melee weapons, raised to Pr6 against soldiers by virtue of Brawler) or whatever else they have, but they don't have to use the knives in order to get them.

Marines will also lose Charge, to make up for this. I did the maths and it turns out that a Marine squad versus the equivalent points in naked IG units (about 30 guys) performs, on average, as well as it does in 40K. The Guardsmen rapid-firing at the Marines do three wounds, while ten Marines rapid-firing bolters at Guardsmen kill 10. In IF, the same is true, but only if the Marines are in melee (7 kills from bolters and 3-4 from the ensuing Onslaught attacks, wiping out a unit).

Of course, if the Guardsmen have a lascannon or a plasma gun, the odds are tipped - likewise if the Marines have a flamer. AP2-equivalent weapons rip right through Marines, as most of them will be Pr10 or more against infantry, and as such be able to inflict instant death.

[Adam]

So I've done the force organisation options, and some troops choices. The Scouts probably still deserve some lovin' in the form of another special rule or two. For now, here's the army SRs for your consideration.

Space Marine Army Special Rules

Technorelics: An army may only include one Technorelic per full 75 points of army limit (so 1-74 = no relic, 75-149 = one, etc). A unit, item or weapon can be labelled as a Technorelic, so watch out.

Orbital Deployment: Drop pods, Assault/Vanguard squads, Land Speeders, and Terminators all have Orbital Deployment. A unit with Orbital Deployment may use the ability when deploying from reserve, and may always be deployed in reserve in addition to any other reserves allowed by the mission. When a unit uses Orbital Deployment, place a single model anywhere on the table, then deviate it D10" (9s and 10s on the direction dice mean it doesn't move). Reduce the distance by 3" if the model's initial position is within 6" of a friendly unit that was on-table in the previous turn. If this model lands on an enemy model or on impassable terrain, the unit is destroyed; otherwise, place all other models in the unit within 3" of it and in cohesion. Any model that cannot be placed somewhere that isn't an enemy model or impassable terrain is destroyed. The unit may not make a normal move this turn, but may otherwise activate, interact with other models, and use action points normally.

Force organisation options: pick one Attack Stage
- 1. Incision: Drop pods are allowed, and must be taken on any unit without Orbital Deployment, with the exception of Scouts; Rhinos and Razorbacks aren't. Land Speeders are the only vehicle available. Devastator squads take up support slots. This represents the initial deployment of the strike force. Half the units in the army (ignoring Scouts, who deploy as normal) Orbitally Deploy on the first turn. The others Orbitally Deploy normally. Units in an Incision that Orbitally Deploy within 6" of a friendly unit that was on-table in the previous turn do not deviate. In turn one, due to the suddenness of the attack, a unit that lands on an enemy unit when deploying may first use the Assault Marines' Vanquish shockwave-attack before any negative consequences occur to them.
- 2. Assault: Land Raiders can be taken as unit supports for Elite units. They still take up support slots. Every unit must either be a vehicle, a bike, a Scout unit, supported by a Rhino/Razorback/Land Raider, or able to Orbitally Deploy. Drop pods are available but the number of units deploying by drop pod cannot exceed the number of non-podded units. Note that units that can Orbitally Deploy don't necessarily have to. Both Assault and Devastator squads are available as Troops. Assault is typically what you'll use for Deathwing.
- 3. Annihilation: Assault Squads take support slots. Drop pods and Orbital Deployments are disallowed. This represents a Marine strike force in all its fully-deployed glory, having battered its way into the enemy lines, laying the righteous smack down.

Bolter ammo types: Choose one each time the model fires. All models in the unit must use the same ammo type. A heavy bolter equipped with one of these ammunition types adds +2" range, +1 Power, and Burst Fire (2) (or (3) for Standard).
- Standard: Rn10" Pr5 Burst Fire (2)
- Metal Storm: Rn8" Pr3 Explosive, Power is not halved for models not under the central hole
- Kraken: Rn14" Pr6
- Vengeance: Rn10" Pr5 Counts Armour values of non-vehicle targets higher than 10 as 10
- Scar: Rn10" Pr5 Add the target's base Fortitude to the Power of the attack. Cannot damage vehicles. (Hellfire)

Combined Arms: Kills made by Space Marines' bolters in close combat can generate Onslaught attacks, if the unit has that special rule. The first Onslaught attack generated is made by the Sergeant's weapon, if the unit includes one, he's still alive, and he doesn't have a Cumbersome weapon. All others are made by the melee weapons wielded by the basic troops.

[Adam]

The army list exists!
www.mediafire.com/?a2naamkgjjl

I removed the technorelic limits. Orbital Deployment went into the main rulebook, as I'll be reusing it. Everything's pretty expensive as expected, although Dreadnoughts are surprisingly cheap (a standard-pattern dread is 18 points). The cheapest thing in the list is the Techmarine, at 12 points, although it's another eight to get him a Servitor retinue. So, nice and elite. (I think the standard Marine unit is 28 points.)

I haven't included a trait system for now; let's get the main list balanced first. Watch out for the slightly different weapons. Space Marine-carried heavy weapons are different from the vehicular ones, twin-linked weapons are different from the normal ones, and just to be annoying, the Dreadnought's twin lascannons have a shorter range than a Predator's or Land Raider's. The statline for each and every weapon, no matter how standardised, is listed in the unit entry (apart from the various bolter ammo types), but be aware that they will differ.

Despite my expectations, Space Marines shouldn't have too much trouble against tanks. Their own vehicles pack a massive punch. Land Raiders, Predators and even Dreadnoughts are all capable of four lascannon blasts a turn. Terminator units (with six Pr10 powerfist attacks) and Assault Marines (six or more Pr13 meltabomb attacks, albeit at a -3 to hit) aren't shabby at all either. The only downside is the lack of anti-tank saturation, as all of this stuff comes at quite a premium. Of course, pinpointing and blowing up the anti-tank threats isn't too easy when the minimum Armour value in the entire list (other than servitors) is 14.

On the anti-infantry front, well, you can't get much better than a bunch of Skill 4 dudes with high armour and 20-odd Pr5 shots a turn. Marines are at their best in close combat, where their Combined Arms and Onslaught rules give them extra attacks as a reward for (righteously) shooting people in the face. Land Raider Crusaders and Redeemers have similar anti-infantry damage output while also being Armour 17 and full of Terminators. (If you're up against a Redeemer, beware its ability to make its conflagrators - giant flamers, normally given the horrifically generically Space Marine name of flamestorm cannons - Power 8, at the cost of its other attack action. That's up to 16 Power 8 attacks.)

Killing this much Ar14 is intimidating, but the Power Armour rule is there to help you. Plasma guns are a must against Space Marines, with that all-important Power 10. Carnifexes (a slew of Pr11 attacks) and Hailfire Droids (Pr12 missiles) can help lay the smack down, and if you're doing Marines vs Marines as is all-too-often the case in 40K, Terminators' powerfists take on a new lease of life.

Note that to properly use this ruleset you'll need the latest revision of the core rules (www.mediafire.com/?4ixodhyf0zz) - it has things like sponson weapons, high impact weapons and a few important fixes and tweaks in it. Oh, and Orbital Deployment, as I mentioned earlier.

[dragonlord]

I haven't had chance to read through the whole army list yet, but one little thing, the Chaplain is missing a points cost.