Casinha
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Post by Casinha on Jun 17, 2008 13:21:21 GMT -5
| Chassis | Sp | As | Rn | Pr | Ar | Ht | Re | At | Ps | | Super-Heavy | 4 | 4 | 6 | 6 | 10 | 200 | 4 | 3 | 9 |
Locomotion: Bipedal w/ treads for feet Power source: Steam-powered hydraulics General Upgrades: Rear Blasters (30 cogs) Profile Upgrades: +2 As (12 cogs), +3 RS (30 cogs), +2 Pr (6 cogs), +2 Ar (16 cogs), +70 Ht (77 cogs), +2 At (16 cogs), +2 Ps (14 cogs). Total 12 upgrades for 171 cogs Rear blasters. When activated, a number of small blasters located on the back of the mech release a short burst of intense, high-powered steam, propelling the mech forward on its treads at breath-taking speed, although a stopping mechanism has yet to have been perfected. The Rear Blasters may only be activated in the assault phase, and only if the mech has remained stationary during the movement phase, and has not fired any Body, Ordnance or Mega weapons during the shooting phase. This is to allow the pressure to build in the tanks. When used, the Mech may make a straight charge of three times its Movement towards an enemy model. Upon impact, a single automatic hit is made on the enemy mech with a strength value of the charging mech’s armour. If the charging mech is larger than the charged mech, the latter is pushed D6 inches in the opposite direction to the charge and must roll a D6. On a roll of 3+, it counts as having fallen over. If the charging mech is smaller than the charged mech, the former must roll a D6. On a roll of 3+ the charging mech has fallen over. After use, the Rear Blasters may not be used for another D6 rounds as vents release excess steam and clear the pipes for the next use. A mech with rear blasters may not include any ranged weaponry on its body. Right Arm: Solid Slug - Papa's New Toy Range: 48" Strength: 3D6 AP: 5 Shots: 3 Type: Giga, Grinder, Heavy, Jam Cogs: 126 Upgrades: Strength +D6 (+13 cogs), +2AP (+8 cogs), +12" Range (+5 cogs), +2 Shots (+18 cogs), Grinder (+12 cogs), Giga (+60 cogs) Left Arm: Solid Slug - Rotary Redback Range: 24" Strength: 3D3 AP: 4 Shots: 5 Type: Grinder, Heavy, Jam Cogs: 78 Upgrades: Strength 3D3 (+12 cogs), +2AP (+8 cogs), +4 Shots (+36 cogs), Grinder (+12 cogs) Left Arm: Close Combat - Power Drill Range: CCW Strength: 2D10 Type: Paired Cogs: 137 Upgrades: +4 Power (+18 cogs), +1As (+10 cogs), Fearless (+10 cogs), +2 power (+10 cogs), 2D10 Strength (+20 cogs) Shoulders: Missile - Mr. Crowd-Pleaser Range: 36" Strength: 2D10 AP: 2 Shots:4 Type: Heavy, Indirect Fire, Salvo Cogs: 89 Upgrades: Strength 2D10 (+22 cogs), +12" Range (+6 cogs), +3 Shots (+36 cogs), Indirect Fire (+12 cogs) TOTAL COGS: 756Constructive criticism is always welcome!  |
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Post by Adam on Jun 19, 2008 5:46:33 GMT -5
That's great, fair play! I love the weapon names, 'specially 'Mr. Crowd Pleaser' - nice one ;D I'll give my thoughts on each bit of it. Statline: I'd agree with that, it suits a mech built like a Big Daddy (which is how this thing is going to appear in my head no matter what you tell me otherwise). Not sure about the 3 Attacks mind, and Armour 10 seems a bit much for the rickety steampunk mass that is Papa Junk. (I personally envision Junkers with crap Ar but tons of hit points.) Oh, you've a typo that quotes 12 upgrades rather than 21, too. 21 upgrades is nice for a special character, obviously over the normal limit, but meh. Upgrades 'n' stuff: Since you don't have any energy/heat weapons I assume the steam powered hydraulics count as a fission reactor? I see the Rear Blasters also make a re-emergence, and nice one on giving it treads to make them work, although the game does have a (much cheaper!) upgrade that'd represent those - Wheeled, which gives +2 Speed in open terrain. I can't imagine Rear Blasters working too well crossing a forest or whatever; being superheavy it would flatten most of the trees, but being a Junker I can't see it surviving them very well! Broken terrain could spoil its day too. As to the knockdown, one of the skills I've come up with (it's in the Die-hards thread I think) is called The Punisher, and it slams your enemy much like what you've got there when you roll a 10 to hit. Also, with the Rear Blasters, you'd only get an impact hit rather than the uberness of Papa Junk's power drill. So basically, you might's well use those two - taking a skill roll costs about 20-25 cogs, but if you're choosing a skill for a character you're best off making it worth about 30-35 depending on what it is (some skills are better than others). Papa's New Toy: Great name, great weapon. I think not maxing it out (as in having a 5 shot gigaweapon...) is a good idea and overall the weapon reflects what you want for it quite well. I personally imagine it looking like a 40K Warlord Titan's gatling blaster but with fewer barrels - a bunch of giant cannons stuck together like a minigun. Only with steam.  Rotary Redback: Ouch! And a good example of the sort of weapon that forms the top end of the Solid Slug power curve, methinks. Especially with Grinder. What with the 3D3 damage roll, that weapon won't half pump out the lasting damage (or serious damage, as I'm going to rename it). Power Drill: Since Papa Junk is obviously a special character, Rear Blasters and all, I'll let you off the hook with taking upgrades from all five lists! Unfortunately, there is one teeny problem: even on a special character, pairing it's a no-no. Paired weapons take up two slots on each arm - they can't fit on one arm, never mind with the gun too - and you can't fit another weapon on the right arm 'cos of the gigaweapon taking up two slots. Sorry. :/ Mr. Crowd-Pleaser: Nice solid gun you've got there. Personally I'd drop a shot or some Strength for more AP, unless you've a specific vision for how this weapon's going to work? (Flaming fragmentation maybe? Good at surface damage and covers a wide area, but can't penetrate much?) |
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Casinha
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Post by Casinha on Jun 19, 2008 18:24:44 GMT -5
Statline: The whole thing with the armour is that, while it is scrap metal, it's still a good 20 inches of solid steel  A punch from that will snap those little plastic, fibre-glass excuses for mechs like twigs. But yeah, I can see what you mean. I envisioned Papa Junk as being more of a Berserker than anything else, hence the 3 attacks and insance Power. And yeah, miscalculated the upgrades, sorry. If you want to make it more even, it might be good to lessen the Rn. How many upgrades can a Super-Heavy take? Upgrades 'n' Stuff: I don't think wheels would suit Papa Junk, and the upgrade was practically created to be able to pull off that maneuver, and is reliant on Papa Junk's insane armour. It's meant to represent the ferocity of Papa Junk, and it's meant to be like being hit by a runaway train. Papa's New Toy: You're right, it's meant to be a 3-barreled cannon that fires 3 rounds at once, or it can rotate to fire the three balls at different targets, then cools down and reloads, rather than constantly revolving and pumping out 3 rounds a turn without reloading. Power Drill: I thought you could take an upgrade from all five lists so long as you compensated by paying the extra cogs? Also, I thought paired weapons only took up one extra weapon slot? Although I'm not sure if that's different for melee weapons. The paired was meant to represent that it's one huge power drill with a number of much smaller power drills around it for extra penetration etc. Mr. Crowd Pleaser: Yeah, it's a spread fire weapon more than anything else. Low-armoured mecha can be gotten out of the way with it, and then the other weapons are for the more troublesome enemies. Thanks for the feedback, 'twas much appreciated |
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Post by Adam on Jun 20, 2008 7:13:37 GMT -5
Statline: The whole thing with the armour is that, while it is scrap metal, it's still a good 20 inches of solid steel A punch from that will snap those little plastic, fibre-glass excuses for mechs like twigs. But yeah, I can see what you mean. I envisioned Papa Junk as being more of a Berserker than anything else, hence the 3 attacks and insance Power. And yeah, miscalculated the upgrades, sorry. If you want to make it more even, it might be good to lessen the Rn. How many upgrades can a Super-Heavy take? Ah, I see. Berserker. With guns and a power drill, obviously. Super-heavies get 19 statline upgrades, like the other mechs. I think Rn 6 suits it fine, actually; it seems appropriate. Just a thought: Shouldn't he have Leader, too? (As in Leadership and Hard as Nails, his statline's fine.) That 20 inches of steel is the 200 hits bit. Possibly even more - as a special character it can break the max profiles, so why not go up to 210? 220? Steel, even high-tech reinforced steel (which it almost certainly isn't), is no longer the top end of the armour market. There are harder materials, mostly composites. A lot of different things can go into an armour plate - crystals, ceramics, metals, plastics and even stone, and that's without looking at alien substances. There are also metals that can be synthesised easily with advanced enough technology, or are less rare since the Cataclysm. Osmium, for example (a metal we have today, the densest material on the planet), isn't that hard to come by since the apocalypse, and is tougher stuff than steel when used correctly. So, Ar 8 and 220 Hits methinks. Upgrades 'n' Stuff: I don't think wheels would suit Papa Junk, and the upgrade was practically created to be able to pull off that maneuver, and is reliant on Papa Junk's insane armour. It's meant to represent the ferocity of Papa Junk, and it's meant to be like being hit by a runaway train. Yeah, I get what you mean, but on the other hand getting charged by a superheavy is like being hit with a runaway train anyway, so... Change it so it can't cross difficult terrain, anyway, and is slowed by light terrain. Oh, and has to be in a straight line with only one turn of up to 45 degrees before starting. So it isn't too easy to use. I don't want a repeat of Wild Charge. I s'pose it's not so bad been as he's Sp 4, but still. The may not use for another D6 rounds thing would probably be a bit annoying to keep track of. Might as well just allow it to be used twice per game (once is a bit restrictive, Papa Junk's big enough to have two charges' worth in tanks somewhere, I reckon). Papa's New Toy: You're right, it's meant to be a 3-barreled cannon that fires 3 rounds at once, or it can rotate to fire the three balls at different targets, then cools down and reloads, rather than constantly revolving and pumping out 3 rounds a turn without reloading. That's unspeakably cool. Reminds me of something too, I think, but I can't put my finger on it. Power Drill: I thought you could take an upgrade from all five lists so long as you compensated by paying the extra cogs? Also, I thought paired weapons only took up one extra weapon slot? Although I'm not sure if that's different for melee weapons. The paired was meant to represent that it's one huge power drill with a number of much smaller power drills around it for extra penetration etc. No on both counts. Sorry  The smaller power drills could be represented by extra attacks. Drop PJ's base At to 2 and raise the weapon's modifier to +2, perhaps; that gives him four attacks instead of 6, but that's fair. 3D6 Strength would probably suit it more, too - those drills'll be made for boring through armour. Mr. Crowd Pleaser: Yeah, it's a spread fire weapon more than anything else. Low-armoured mecha can be gotten out of the way with it, and then the other weapons are for the more troublesome enemies. Sounds sensible. Thanks for the feedback, 'twas much appreciated My pleasure |
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Twin
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Post by Twin on Jun 20, 2008 7:45:19 GMT -5
You do realise you've created the DoS version of the Bioshock Big Daddy's?  Hell, even the name fits! Oh, I know! The badguy from Toy Story ('Zorg' I think) has a three-barrelled hand-mounted weapon firing three yellow balls! ... ;D I agree with Adam on the Ar10 bit. Plain ol' steel just don't cut it in the far future, and the thickness is already represented by the Mass Points (aka Integrity aka Hits...). Overall this mech is mad cool though. Especially with the charge |
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Casinha
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Post by Casinha on Jun 20, 2008 7:47:13 GMT -5
Ah, I see. Berserker. With guns and a power drill, obviously. Super-heavies get 19 statline upgrades, like the other mechs. I think Rn 6 suits it fine, actually; it seems appropriate. Just a thought: Shouldn't he have Leader, too? (As in Leadership and Hard as Nails, his statline's fine.) Okay, maybe not a berserker as you know it . Basically he's meant to be a ferocious enemy in CC, but more to bestial ferocity and ignorance of any hits that come it way than to actual developed skill. Basically, people are meant to hit him, he's meant to take it, and then while they are shocked that he hasn't gone down thanks to his insane number of Hits, he smacks 'em in the face with a power drill of DOOOOOOOOM! No idea about Leader/Hard as Nails, either Need to read up on this. That 20 inches of steel is the 200 hits bit. Possibly even more - as a special character it can break the max profiles, so why not go up to 210? 220? Steel, even high-tech reinforced steel (which it almost certainly isn't), is no longer the top end of the armour market. There are harder materials, mostly composites. A lot of different things can go into an armour plate - crystals, ceramics, metals, plastics and even stone, and that's without looking at alien substances. There are also metals that can be synthesised easily with advanced enough technology, or are less rare since the Cataclysm. Osmium, for example (a metal we have today, the densest material on the planet), isn't that hard to come by since the apocalypse, and is tougher stuff than steel when used correctly. So, Ar 8 and 220 Hits methinks. Bear in mind that just because the Junkers don't know how to properly use the advanced technology of the Post-Cataclysm world, it doesn't mean they don't have it. Junkers scavenge more than others, considering their nomadic lifestyle; they have no money from regular jobs, so any cash/food for the tribe is gotten through scavenged items. They don't know how to use the technology, so they find their own ways of using them (melt them down for core materials, trade them, take them apart and add them to other inventions, and juves just stick it on their mech to make it look cool  . As well as that, Junkers aren't born into it, only when they decide to walk the path, and that can range from any age. That means that a professor of science could choose to walk the path at 54, or a child of 6 could choose the same thing. Although I do agree with the whole 8Ar 220Hits for Papa Junk, suits him more. Yeah, I get what you mean, but on the other hand getting charged by a superheavy is like being hit with a runaway train anyway, so... Then being hit by the rear blasters is meant to be liked being hit by multiple runaway trains at once. Change it so it can't cross difficult terrain, anyway, and is slowed by light terrain. Oh, and has to be in a straight line with only one turn of up to 45 degrees before starting. So it isn't too easy to use. I don't want a repeat of Wild Charge. I s'pose it's not so bad been as he's Sp 4, but still. I'm pretty sure I put in "make a straight charge" in the description. Also, I always wondered if Papa Junk could expend x number of attacks to get light terrain out of his way. If not, then yeah, it can't be used in anything but open terrain. The may not use for another D6 rounds thing would probably be a bit annoying to keep track of. Might as well just allow it to be used twice per game (once is a bit restrictive, Papa Junk's big enough to have two charges' worth in tanks somewhere, I reckon). In can be kept track of quite easily with a die representing the number of rounds. No on both counts. Sorry The smaller power drills could be represented by extra attacks. Drop PJ's base At to 2 and raise the weapon's modifier to +2, perhaps; that gives him four attacks instead of 6, but that's fair. 3D6 Strength would probably suit it more, too - those drills'll be made for boring through armour. To quote from the rules you gave me:- "You can buy up to one upgrade from each of the lists (well, except List 5, which is slightly different – see below)." "You can choose a single upgrade from list 5 if you have chosen from up to two other lists." I wasn't able to find any kind of upgrade that helped CCWs with piercing armour, so I decided to go for 2-10 damage from 2D10 rather than 3-18 damage from 3D6. The two extra max damage is worth more than 1 extra minimum damage. |
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Twin
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Post by Twin on Jun 20, 2008 8:01:27 GMT -5
Yup, so you can either:
1. Buy up to 4 different upgrades, one each from lists 1-4
or
2. Buy up to 2 different upgrades from lists 1-4, and one upgrade from list 5
Actually the wording is a tiny bit akward, I think it should be:
"You can choose a single upgrade from list 5 if you have only chosen from up to two other lists."
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Casinha
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Post by Casinha on Jun 20, 2008 8:49:41 GMT -5
Ah, of course. I misread it, sorry. |
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Post by Adam on Jun 20, 2008 16:05:52 GMT -5
Okay, maybe not a berserker as you know it . Basically he's meant to be a ferocious enemy in CC, but more to bestial ferocity and ignorance of any hits that come it way than to actual developed skill. Basically, people are meant to hit him, he's meant to take it, and then while they are shocked that he hasn't gone down thanks to his insane number of Hits, he smacks 'em in the face with a power drill of DOOOOOOOOM! Sounds like a Khador 'jack to me. No idea about Leader/Hard as Nails, either Need to read up on this. Check the Leader upgrade entry. Bear in mind that just because the Junkers don't know how to properly use the advanced technology of the Post-Cataclysm world, it doesn't mean they don't have it. Junkers scavenge more than others, considering their nomadic lifestyle; they have no money from regular jobs, so any cash/food for the tribe is gotten through scavenged items. They don't know how to use the technology, so they find their own ways of using them (melt them down for core materials, trade them, take them apart and add them to other inventions, and juves just stick it on their mech to make it look cool . As well as that, Junkers aren't born into it, only when they decide to walk the path, and that can range from any age. That means that a professor of science could choose to walk the path at 54, or a child of 6 could choose the same thing. Although I do agree with the whole 8Ar 220Hits for Papa Junk, suits him more. Nah. Junkers think high technology is sinful, remember? A laser cannon is a moral dilemma to even the most liberal Junker. They've been known to lose sleep after scavenging fusion reactors. I prefer the sorta-amish look on it myself. After all, if we're just talking about a faction who bash bits of other people's mechs together and tinker endlessly until it works, well that's every ganger on the planet... Then being hit by the rear blasters is meant to be liked being hit by multiple runaway trains at once. Touche. ;D I'm pretty sure I put in "make a straight charge" in the description. Also, I always wondered if Papa Junk could expend x number of attacks to get light terrain out of his way. If not, then yeah, it can't be used in anything but open terrain. You did, yeah. I was adding the single 45 degree turn. The expending attacks sounds good, although it'd have to be difficult terrain, as light terrain is just stuff like broken ground and shrubs and stuff - difficult terrain is the stuff you smash through. In can be kept track of quite easily with a die representing the number of rounds. Yeah, I know, it wouldn't be insanely difficult. It just 'feels' like a slightly irritating rule. Maybe it's different in practice. I wasn't able to find any kind of upgrade that helped CCWs with piercing armour, so I decided to go for 2-20 damage from 2D10 rather than 3-18 damage from 3D6. The two extra max damage is worth more than 1 extra minimum damage. 3D6 gets +3 to lasting/serious damage rolls, 2D10 gets +2. Hence the anti armour boost. On a straight-damage front, 2D10 beats 3D6 - but on lasting damage it doesn't, by far, making 3D6 worth more cogs. Which I believe it is? Or if it isn't, it should be. ;D |
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Casinha
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Post by Casinha on Jun 20, 2008 19:15:31 GMT -5
Sounds like a Khador 'jack to me. You'd be right Nah. Junkers think high technology is sinful, remember? A laser cannon is a moral dilemma to even the most liberal Junker. They've been known to lose sleep after scavenging fusion reactors. I prefer the sorta-amish look on it myself. After all, if we're just talking about a faction who bash bits of other people's mechs together and tinker endlessly until it works, well that's every ganger on the planet... They're not meant to hate technology! They're meant to be passive, they don't hate or shun anything. They accept everyone and everything, as long as it keeps to its path. Papa Junk is just one example of the many levels of technology they have. If everything they have is inferior, what would be the point taking a junker? Yeah, I know, it wouldn't be insanely difficult. It just 'feels' like a slightly irritating rule. Maybe it's different in practice. I do a lot of roleplaying where "enemy is stunned for 1D10 rounds" is a common element. I'm more than used to it. 3D6 gets +3 to lasting/serious damage rolls, 2D10 gets +2. Hence the anti armour boost. On a straight-damage front, 2D10 beats 3D6 - but on lasting damage it doesn't, by far, making 3D6 worth more cogs. Which I believe it is? Or if it isn't, it should be. ;D Bah! Really, really need to read the actual rules. |
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Post by Adam on Jun 21, 2008 10:33:52 GMT -5
If everything they have is inferior, what would be the point taking a junker? Important point here. Most wargames have at least one faction with crappy, or at least less powerful, technology. 40K's Orks (or even the Imperium, in a way), Infinity's Ariadna, AT-43's Red Blok, Warmachine's Everyone-who's-not-Cygnar, and so on. But they compensate in other ways. Khador pile on heaps of armour. Orks do it with massed dakka and sheer numbers. Red Blok have lots of infantry and lots of comparatively primitive but REALLY BIG guns; the Imperium takes this even further. Ariadna come with shapeshifting Dog-warriors and that sort of thing. Junkers are DoS's low tech faction, just as Twin's planned alientech addicts will be the high end of the spectrum. This doesn't make them suck. They can only use fission reactors perhaps, so they don't get high power energy/heat weapons or alien weapons, but they still get the full spectrum of solid slug, missiles, and most importantly, ordnance. For example. Some Junker rule ideas: Heaps of Armour: -1 to maximum and minimum armour values, but +20 to max. & min. damage stat. Must take Armoured Head, but gets it for free. (Mech special rule. Overall bonus, especially against single shot high power guns. Obviously needs a better name... or does it? ;D) Pure of Heart: Knows that despite his renegade status he's firmly and resolutely on the path, his actions are good, and when he dies, he'll end up in paradise. Any Junker with no laser or heat weapons at all is fearless in close combat and gets +1 Attack when charging. (Faction special rule. Makes 'em a hell of a sledgehammer in combat.) Sheer Mass: Junkers get some kind of impact hit if they have enough hit points. (Faction rule) I'll think this through properly another time when I make the faction thread (need to get round to doing those...) But you see what I'm getting at, yeah? Khador with more dakka, basically. A faction full of big mechs - as you put it, "20 inches of steel" - that may be a bit ramshackle and clunky, but BOY are they strong and tough to kill! |
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Casinha
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Post by Casinha on Jun 21, 2008 11:07:07 GMT -5
Hating technology is a theme you really need to drop with these guys. I'll admit that it's fine to have them with inferior technology, but to have them hate it just doesn't make sense to me. They're not amish, they follow a way of life, not a religion. I do like the special rules you've got going, though, they're pretty cool. |
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Post by Adam on Jun 21, 2008 15:50:31 GMT -5
They don't hate technology. They've been brought up to think it's something they should avoid, because it'll stray them from the path. Think about it. Technology = power = sin = desire other than the promised land. That's how they look at it.
Anyway, the idea of a mech made out of wood and iron, pumping steam and cannonballs and weighing more than three of the enemy put together, charging headlong across a battlefield and bowling something flat is just too good to pass up.
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A punch from that will snap those little plastic, fibre-glass excuses for mechs like twigs. But yeah, I can see what you mean. I envisioned Papa Junk as being more of a Berserker than anything else, hence the 3 attacks and insance Power. And yeah, miscalculated the upgrades, sorry. If you want to make it more even, it might be good to lessen the Rn. How many upgrades can a Super-Heavy take?
The smaller power drills could be represented by extra attacks. Drop PJ's base At to 2 and raise the weapon's modifier to +2, perhaps; that gives him four attacks instead of 6, but that's fair. 3D6 Strength would probably
Hell, even the name fits!
. As well as that, Junkers aren't born into it, only when they decide to walk the path, and that can range from any age. That means that a professor of science could choose to walk the path at 54, or a child of 6 could choose the same thing. Although I do agree with the whole 8Ar 220Hits for Papa Junk, suits him more.