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Post by Adam on Mar 12, 2009 10:39:52 GMT -5
As you may be aware, I'm planning to make a 40K mod for Infinite Frontier's ruleset, when it's done. This is an indefinite point in the future right now (although may not be that far off; depends how IF playtesting goes down and how many times I rewrite the mechanics). I did come up with rough outlines for what each race would look like, though, and posted them in the game design tips thread. Then I realised that people might want to comment on them, which hasn't-but-could-in-future derail the thread. So they're going down here. Technically this should go in the Mods: Other Games board, but I can foresee myself jumping the shark and writing one of the 40K armies into the game before it's properly done, so it'll land here. Who knows, 40K might end up replacing Star Wars as the game's intended background. (I doubt this very much, though. Don't get excited. ) - Imperial Guard: Disposable heroes. (The song suits the Guard perfectly, don't you think?) Move forward, secure an objective or objectives and hold to the death. TANKS. Will typically secure pyrrhic victories, winning but with a very low number of troops remaining. - Space Marines: Low number scalpel force. Brutal and uncompromising, but precise. Powerful, versatile infantry with some armour support. Require skill and finesse to have their best effect. - Inquisition: Shadowy and vicious. Good at isolating and destroying single targets and countering esoteric attacks while replying in kind. Can have support from Adeptas Sororitas, Deathwatch, and/or Grey Knights, for killing specific targets. - Chaos: Masses of cultist renegades with improvised or stolen weapons backed up by elite squads of Chaos Space Marines. Emphasis on expendability. Very steep power scale - basic troops are pathetic, elites above-average, characters ridiculous. A good Chaos player knows when to sacrifice units for maximum benefit to the rest of his army (literally; sending cultists to their deaths gets you bonuses). - Eldar: Dance in and out in hit-and-run attacks that misdirect the enemy. Good at tactical feints - the army can appear to be concentrated in one area and suddenly end up in another. Nigh impossible to pin down. Balanced between shooting and precision melee. - Dark Eldar: In and out with the screams of the slaves trailing behind them. VERY fast assault army. Lack the subtlety and avoidance of the normal Eldar, and are best protected by getting straight in there into melee. Work best by dividing the enemy up. Play on your opponent's psyche. - Orks: Uncompromising horde assault army; hits you in the face like a sledgehammer. Ork taktiks come in timing - they have a lot of one-shot abilities that when used, together or in sequence, at the right times can turn the tide of the game. These aren't just fast charges; most of them are weird bits of gadgetry and weaponry. - Necrons: Where did that enormous, slowly-marching phalanx of death-robots come fro- AAAAGH! - Tau: Can embody the Mont'ka or the Kau'yon - the two strategies they use in the 40K background, one being a precise surgical strike, the other being a patient trap-like formation. Special abilities let them pull off major Mont'ka or Kau'yon tricks once a game. Dangerous to fight against because they can switch strategy at any time, and you never know when the real impact's going to come. - Tyranids: Numberless, all-devouring, terrifying. A lethal assault/balanced army that relies on adapting itself to the enemy and the situation (the army actually has options for reserve units that can be one of several different model types, decided by you when they arrive!). Also emphasise the other aspects of a Tyranid attack - consumption, mutant plant life, and so on. Psychologically prey on your opponent, like the Dark Eldar. All pretty different, and all rather interesting. The Dark Eldar sound like a challenge to write, in particular; I'm most looking forward to the Nids though, because, well, I'm a Nid player. Whaddya expect.
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Post by Adam on Jun 29, 2009 9:24:47 GMT -5
Alrighty! How's this sound for IF40K mod rules. Imagine these bolted on to the normal IF core rules.
Charging (movement & attack action) Charging is done instead of running and follows all the same restrictions and rules, except that a model may make additional charge actions immediately following a charge action. A charge, however, is a move of up to 3", after which the model may make a single attack (ignoring the Multiple Attack WSR) with any melee weapon it possesses. A charge action may not be made in close combat.
Onslaught (USR) If, during a charge action, the model destroys one or more enemies with a melee weapon, it may make another attack with the same weapon after making the 1" move. Extra attacks gained from Onslaught cannot generate additional attacks from Onslaught. A unit with Onslaught is still prevented from making 1" moves after successful melee hits; however, if any kills are made, the entire unit gets to move 1", and then a number of successive attacks equal to the number of enemy models destroyed are made. Make successive attacks using the melee weapon used by the majority of the unit during the action (if there's a tie for whatever reason, the attacking models' owning player may choose). Space Marines, for example, get this, representing their sheer brutality.
Cumbersome (WSR) Ignore all wounds caused by a Cumbersome melee weapon for purposes of the Onslaught rule (this does mean that a lone model or unit entirely using cumbersome weapons doesn't get to Onslaught at all). A model with a Cumbersome weapon may not move up to 1" after a successful melee attack. Powerfists et al.
Heavy Weapon (WSR) An infantry model may only fire a Heavy Weapon if it moves no more than half its Speed in inches during its entire activation. Heavy weapons may not be used in close combat. SM man-portable heavy weapons - smaller than the real deal, and in IF, correspondingly not-quite-as-powerful, but more mobile.
Static (WSR) An infantry model may only fire a static weapon if it doesn't move at all this activation. Static weapons may not be used in close combat. (Bear in mind that a model with a heavy or static weapon can still fire if the rest of the unit runs/takes cover/etc, as long as it stays below the required movement limit.) IG heavy weapons, Eldar support weapons, etc.
Reflexive Strike (USR) When an enemy model moves within 2" of a model with Reflexive Strike, this model may immediately attack the enemy model with a single melee weapon. Only one attack is made, regardless of Multiple Attack. If a model with Reflexive Strike is charged by an enemy model/unit, resolve both sets of attacks, then remove all casualties - so models killed still get to attack. Replaces high Initiative on things like Wyches and Genestealers.
Swarm (USR) Models with Swarm inflict a -1 penalty on enemy to-hit rolls, double the amount of wounds taken from Template or Explosive attacks, and can be moved through by friendly and enemy models. Models with Swarm also ignore these rules with regards to other Swarms. (No, they don't ignore the ignoring-other-Swarms rule. That would be silly.)
Psyker (USR) (when playing Star Wars vs 40K, treat psykers/psychic actions and Jedi/Jedi actions as the same thing for rules interactions purposes, although Jedi and force powers don't follow these rules) Most psychic powers require psychic tests, indicated by a difficulty score. Powers without a difficulty don't require tests. To make a psychic test, roll any number of D10s up to the model's Skill, add them up and compare to the power's difficulty. If the roll is equal or greater, the power takes effect immediately; otherwise, nothing happens and you've wasted an action point. On top of that, if a double is rolled, the psyker immediately takes a wound; if a triple is rolled... the model just dies. Kaput. When a psyker dies due to this, something random happens, which also determines whether (and how) the power still goes off or not. All psychic powers are psychic actions.
Tank Shock (movement & attack action; normally, wheeled vehicles with at least 4 Fortitude only, although certain other models can do it too) Done instead of running. The vehicle may move through non-vehicle models during this move, and must move in a straight line. It stops if it hits a model that it cannot move through. Infantry models it moves into are moved out of the way by the shortest distance possible, and knocked down. The vehicle attacks each model it moved through, at -2 to hit (it only gets the Backstrike bonus against a model/unit if the target couldn't draw LOS to it before it activated) and with a Power equal to its Fortitude stat + 2, ignoring wounds it has suffered. Models hit are knocked down. If it hits a vehicle or monstrous creature, both vehicles roll to damage each other. A vehicle or a ramming monstrous creature causes a number of hits on the other equal to its Speed, with a Power equal to half its Armour. A monstrous creature being rammed may immediately attack once with each of its melee weapons (ow?!).
Daemonic (USR) - Stats can only be affected by psychic powers, friendly or enemy. - Suffer -2 Armour against psychic attacks. - Enemy psykers must re-roll successful psychic tests while there are daemons on the table, unless the result was a Perils of the Warp attack. - Commando, but don't need to be in cover and don't count as having taken cover. - Hearts of Rubber (instability). - Insert Chaos-power-rivalry type rule here.
Transport (USR) Embarking on a transport is an action, as is disembarking. Embarking is a move of up to 2" on the unit's part that must bring each model into base contact with the vehicle (remove it as soon as it makes base contact to allow other models to fit in). Disembarking involves placing members within 2" of the vehicle. Ignore access points. Either one can be an action on either the vehicle's part or the unit's. A transport cannot carry more than one unit. Transports can (normally) only carry non-vehicle models. Transports have a maximum capacity for number of models. If a transport is destroyed with models inside, the unit is placed where it was (centre one model on the centrepoint of the transport, then arrange the others as close as possible around it) and each member takes a hit with a Power equal to the transport's starting Fortitude. They are all also knocked down.
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Post by dragonlord on Jun 29, 2009 15:50:39 GMT -5
Most of your suggested special rules seem fairly sensible. A few individual comments:
I'm not entirely sure if the roll a dice at the end of the turn and add the number of psychic powers thing for psykers is entirely necessary, they die easily enough as it is.
A couple of other things on applications of these occur, though these obviously aren't immediately applicable at the moment.
Onslaught might also be a useful rule to give select units from other races, like ogryns.
Similarly Heavy Weapon would probably also be applicable to Eldar weapons platforms.
As much as I don't want to give you too many ideas for the nids, it also occurs that perhaps tusked carnifexes should be able to tank shock?
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Post by Adam on Jun 29, 2009 16:00:03 GMT -5
All sounds good to me Bear in mind the example units with each ability aren't exhaustive lists, there will probably be plenty of models with onslaught, static weapons etc. (Onslaught in particular. SM, CSM, some Tyranids, some Dark Eldar, perhaps some Eldar, some Orks...) Yeah, I guess the end of turn roll for psykers is only going to get in the way. I put that in after Ollie said psychic powers should be really risky and random, but I don't really like rules like that, so I'll cut it out. I'd already intended the Eldar support weapon platforms to get static weapon rules, although I think the normal ones would be best off left alone, as they're meant to be mobile. (As they'll only come in Ac1 Guardian squads, being able to run and shoot - which I'd normally object to - is a nonissue.) Ogryns onslaughting and Tusked 'fexes tank shocking sound fun. Or should that be Thornback? I'm tempted to say Thornback, as it seems more appropriate. (Tusks = Onslaught, probably.) While I'm on the subject of Tank Shock, it's probably better for the attacker to only knock models down that it hits, rather than everything it moves through. *Goes and edits post*
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Post by dragonlord on Jun 29, 2009 16:39:00 GMT -5
Yes actually tusked=onslaught and thornback=tank shock does seem more appropriate. I agree on the only knocking down hit models point, also are you going to put in anything like the Death or Glory rule GW has with tank shock (not that I'm asking for it mind you, I'm quite happy being able to run over people at will ;D)
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Post by Peter on Jun 30, 2009 10:21:16 GMT -5
With the whole psychic powers question, bear in mind that most battlefield psykers are going to be absolute giants of mental fortitude and probably shouldn't die that easily just from using their powers.
Sanctioned psykers, on the other hand, could actually make an interesting kamikaze unit ;D - each time they use one of their powers they have a chance to explode rather violently.
I'd be tempted to go for a War of the Ring style system where the power could just fail, but has the same chance of being super effective. Bear in mind that sorcerers, farseers and librarians have been doing this for hundreds or thousands of years, and it might be unreasonable for them to occasionally explode.
This also makes them essentially balanced against the Jedi and hero actions available, as long as the powers are.
The other rules seem OK to me.
Also, potential additions:
Loadout (WSR, warlocks): If a model or unit carries weapons with this special rule, they must choose one of them when deployed. The model only carries this weapon, and loses access to other weapons with the loadout special rule. (This allows WH40k's many Generic McHeroes to be provided in a smaller number of entries).
Eye of the Storm (USR, warlocks, aspect warriors, possibly some spess mehrens ;D):
In battle, these warriors assume a fierce warrior persona, seemingly lacking emotion save the desire to watch their enemies burn. At the same time, however, they are calm and collected
Models with this USR have +1 swiftness while 6" or more from any enemy, and +1 skill when within 6" of an enemy. Additionally, when running directly towards an enemy unit, they may move an additional 2".
With the possible exception of Tau, this rule is really for skilled, calm, collected warriors rather than frothing lunatics - thus, eldar and loyalist marines qualify whereas Orks and Khorne Berserkers absolutely do not.
Price of Failure (ethereals):
Fire Warriors have been known to enter a cold, unflinching battle frenzy, in which they advance relentlessly towards the enemy army, pouring fire steadily into them until no foe exists to slay or the tau run out of ammunition. The death of a particularly beloved ethereal can trigger this.
On the death of this model, all friendly models gain the Eye of the Storm universal special rule for the remainder of the battle.
Hope Lost: This warrior is a beacon of hope in a dark and uncaring universe. To have such a prominent figure destroyed would send waves of despair throughout an army. If this model is killed, all friendly units gain the Hearts of Rubber special rule until they next activate.
Rampage: (Berserkers, Death Company):
If possible, this warrior must attempt a charge action. On doing so, the warrior receives +2" movement, +1 Skill and +2 Power.
Unstoppable: (USR, Necrons, granted by Apothecaries):
Each time this model or unit suffers a wound, roll a d10. On a roll of 7+, the model or unit may repair the wound at the start of its activation - do not record it, unless the controller elects not to repair wounds.
To repair any wounds which may be repaired, the model or unit must spend an action point before moving. This may require it to forfeit its move if it is not an elite unit.
Godlike: (A joke too far: daemons, The Avatar of Khaine)
This model is an entity of unimaginable power, almost impossible to truly destroy. It may even be forged from the raw essence of the warp itself. Roll a d10 each time this model suffers a wound. On a roll of a 7+, the wound is discounted.
Instability: (apparitions, daemons, avatars) This being is seemingly forged from the raw essence of the warp, and can only exist in material form for a short time. If this model or unit rolls a 1 on its roll to ignore wounds (through Unstoppable or Godlike) then it instead suffers an additional wound.
Mind Shield (X): Against attacks from weapons with the Psychic special rule, use X in place of the creature's armour value, even if it is lower.
Creatures with low Mind Shield should include ALL tyranids, daemons and possibly the Avatar.
Psychic: WSR: This weapon deals damage using the raw energy of the warp. As well as modifying some armour values, this weapon automatically wounds a non-vehicle target once on a critical hit.
It may also be interesting to stat up Unsane and Apparitions from Kill-Team: Nemesis, as well as the various beasts. They're all in ancient issues of White Dwarf, however. I can certainly see IG garrison forces making use of local wildlife, however.
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Post by dragonlord on Jun 30, 2009 14:38:24 GMT -5
For the most part those all seem pretty good Hellfirewarlock. I can't help thinking that the needing to spend an action point before moving for unstoppable will result in a lot of stationary necrons though, maybe allow them to move but say the model cannot make any other actions that turn?
Also for Mind Shield, I would have thought that, for synapse creatures at least, the Hive Mind would be more of a protective influence than a weakness. Presumably you would intend the Necrons to have a high mind shield value?
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Post by Peter on Jul 1, 2009 8:52:41 GMT -5
I wanted to punish the Necrontyr at least a little for that infuriating self-repair ability.
I put tyranids down as vulnerable to psychic feedback - after all, psykers still have their connection to the warp, and most Tyranids are controlled by synapse creatures.
The general rule seems to be that anything warp-dependent or psychic-dependent tends to be a little more vulnerable to psychic effects itself. The only real exception is the Psychic Hood - and that is a pretty advanced piece of kit.
BTW, Adam: Are you ignoring the Black Guardians (the elite guardians of Ulthwe which got dropped in 4th because PK didn't want to use alternate force organisation charts) then?
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Post by Adam on Jul 1, 2009 13:50:19 GMT -5
Yes actually tusked=onslaught and thornback=tank shock does seem more appropriate. I agree on the only knocking down hit models point, also are you going to put in anything like the Death or Glory rule GW has with tank shock (not that I'm asking for it mind you, I'm quite happy being able to run over people at will ;D) Death or Glory... I vaguely remember thinking about this when I wrote the rules. Either I got distracted before I put it in or decided it was too random or something. Oh, wait! DoG wouldn't really work that well because if the vehicle had more than one wound, it would be unstoppable anyway, and running over enemies with badly damaged vehicles is where the fun in Tank Shock lies. Eye of the Storm: Models with this USR have +1 swiftness while 6" or more from any enemy, and +1 skill when within 6" of an enemy. Additionally, when running directly towards an enemy unit, they may move an additional 2". That lets a Speed 4 creature run 12" into combat. 14", with the melee range. So let's not use it liberally. I can see it being the basis for a hit and run tactic type thing for a small number of units that are supposed to melt from place to place and attack, as in a couple of rare types of Eldar aspect warriors or maybe Dark Eldar Mandrakes or something. Price of Failure: On the death of this model, all friendly models gain the Eye of the Storm universal special rule for the remainder of the battle. I won't be putting Price of Failure into the Ethereals' rules. I want them to be more useful when they're alive than when they're dead. As it is now, Ethereals are all but useless. Hope Lost: This warrior is a beacon of hope in a dark and uncaring universe. To have such a prominent figure destroyed would send waves of despair throughout an army. If this model is killed, all friendly units gain the Hearts of Rubber special rule until they next activate. A decent idea to throw on a special character. Problem is, it'd only really work well with the Imperial Guard (who have Hearts of Rubber anyway) or Aun'Va (I daresay Fire Warriors may well have HoR as well). Could give it to Aun'Va anyway, I guess. Rampage: If possible, this warrior must attempt a charge action. On doing so, the warrior receives +2" movement, +1 Skill and +2 Power. No. For a start, this is ever so slightly overkill. +1 Skill and +2 Power on the charge is quite a lot for someone with a Pr7-8 chainaxe and Skill 4 or 5. Berserkers are supposed to be brutal, but there's such a thing as too brutal. I don't think charging would benefit a berserker that much anyway, as the bonuses of a charge are due to momentum and ferocity, which berserkers have all the time. Because they're berserk. Also, this allows the Speed 4-5 Berserkers to spend all their action points on Speed 5 charges. Berserkers will have two action points, and 14"-15" moving Berserkers is not something I want to see. Unstoppable: Each time this model or unit suffers a wound, roll a d10. On a roll of 7+, the model or unit may repair the wound at the start of its activation - do not record it, unless the controller elects not to repair wounds. To repair any wounds which may be repaired, the model or unit must spend an action point before moving. This may require it to forfeit its move if it is not an elite unit. This makes Necrons a bit useless (not that they aren't now, but still ;D). A simpler way of implementing a selfrepair system is removing all excess wounds on a multiwound Necron when it activates. Yes, this way, normal Necrons can't get back up. That can be remedied by giving Lords and Tomb Spyders abilities that replenish units' numbers, and thence allowing Necron players a synergistic force that can be extremely difficult to wipe out if correctly handled. Godlike: Roll a d10 each time this model suffers a wound. On a roll of a 7+, the wound is discounted. I imagine the Avatar would just end up with Armour 18. Giving it an armour save only slows things down Mind Shield (X): Against attacks from weapons with the Psychic special rule, use X in place of the creature's armour value, even if it is lower. Creatures with low Mind Shield should include ALL tyranids, daemons and possibly the Avatar. Yerwot? Tyranids, as dragonlord pointed out, would be MORE resistant to psychic attacks. They don't have souls. They're shielded by the hive mind, which also obscures or severs the psyker's connection to the warp in the first place. The Avatar would probably also not really care about psychic powers that much, given that it's a god. Daemons are warp energy, and using psychic powers in a warp rift is probably a lot more dangerous for the user than the intended target... This could work though, giving things better or worse armour against psychic powers - it could be equipment for psykers and a component of Shadow in the Warp. If the X was a modifier that might make things easier as well. (e.g. Shadow in the Warp forces enemy psykers to discard the lowest* dice rolled for a psychic test and gives all Tyranids Mind Shield (2)). *If it was highest, Shadow would probably be pretty broken. Psychic: WSR: This weapon deals damage using the raw energy of the warp. As well as modifying some armour values, this weapon automatically wounds a non-vehicle target once on a critical hit. This is a bit unnecessary. As a WSR, there's... one? two? weapons which might have it, the Animus Speculum and witchblades, and I'm not sure that might be an effect those weapons might want. (If witchblades get a critical at all, it has to be some explosion of psychic force that hurls enemies away. Dawn of War emphasises this nicely.) As a rule for psychic powers, it's a bit imprecise to give all psychic attacks this ability. It'll be too powerful on some, pointless on others, fine on a few. Instead, we're better off sticking with Critical Headshot or a named version of the autowound crit (because I do quite like the idea; problem is, Critical Fatality's already taken...). BTW, Adam: Are you ignoring the Black Guardians (the elite guardians of Ulthwe which got dropped in 4th because PK didn't want to use alternate force organisation charts) then? Er... forgot about those... but no?
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Post by dragonlord on Jul 1, 2009 16:18:27 GMT -5
I always forget how IF works with running and multiple actions, yes I can see that that might get a little broken if spread around too liberally.
That's fair enough I suppose, I think the Tau do need some sort of special rule relating to the death of the Ethereal but possible just Hope Lost would do. Actually it occurs to me that Hope Lost (or an equivalent more Orkishly named rule) would work quite well on Ork Warbosses, they hold the Waaagh! together and if the enemy kills the Warboss it would likely through things into disarray, as much because the other powerful Orks would start fighting over who should be the next Warboss as anything else.
I can see, I suppose, that this might be just a little bit over the top when applied to Berserkers.
While obviously I agree regarding the Tyranids, largely because of the effect the Shadow in the Warp has in the background, I'm not entirely sure I agree regarding Avatars, and don't agree at all regarding daemons. Daemons are indeed warp energy, thus weapons that utilise warp energy can attack them in their own element, going right at their very nature, much as physical attacks are quite effective against physical objects it makes sense that psychic/warp based attacks should be quite effective against warp creatures. This is also the entire basis of the Grey Knights, fighting daemons with psychic powers and psychically active weapons.
There are also Librarian/Chaos Sorcerer force weapons that would fall under the same category, possibly the Eldar singing spear, and as I mentioned above, a whole slew of weapons used by the Grey Knights, all those nemesis force weapons and psycannons. I agree that it doesn't work so well for psychic powers and probably shouldn't be applied to powers, but for psychically embued weapons it works fairly well.
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Post by Peter on Jul 8, 2009 8:41:39 GMT -5
The fluff for daemons puts them down as being particularly vulnerable to attacks from warp energy - witchblades, force weapons and nemesis force weapons are actually made with daemons in mind, which is why I didn't like the new rules for monstrous creatures which make all big daemons utterly indifferent to force weaponry.
As for tyranids - I guess there is the whole shadow in the warp thing.
With the Eye of the Storm thing, it might be better to just allow the unit a +1 Swiftness or +1 Skill. It's really there for the "kind of berserk" units - Aspect Warriors, Blood Angels (not Death Company), and possibly a few others. The ones who want to see their enemies die messily but are quite capable of exercising the self-restraint necessary to actually follow orders.
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Post by Adam on Jul 8, 2009 10:25:47 GMT -5
It's probably more convenient to build a vulnerability to psychic powers into the daemons' rules themselves, though. How about this:
Daemonic (USR) - Stats can only be affected by psychic powers, friendly or enemy. - Suffer -2 Armour against psychic attacks. - Enemy psykers must re-roll successful psychic tests while there are daemons on the table, unless the result was a Perils of the Warp attack. - Commando, but don't need to be in cover and don't count as having taken cover. - Hearts of Rubber (instability). - Insert Chaos-power-rivalry type rule here.
Also, transports:
Transport (USR) Embarking on a transport is an action, as is disembarking. Embarking is a move of up to 2" on the unit's part that must bring each model into base contact with the vehicle (remove it as soon as it makes base contact to allow other models to fit in). Disembarking involves placing members within 2" of the vehicle. Ignore access points. Either one can be an action on either the vehicle's part or the unit's. A transport cannot carry more than one unit. Transports can (normally) only carry non-vehicle models. Transports have a maximum capacity for number of models. If a transport is destroyed with models inside, the unit is placed where it was (centre one model on the centrepoint of the transport, then arrange the others as close as possible around it) and each member takes a hit with a Power equal to the transport's starting Fortitude. They are all also knocked down.
Original post duly edited.
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Post by dragonlord on Jul 8, 2009 16:13:06 GMT -5
Having a daemonic USR makes as much sense as having an anti-daemon WSR I suppose, though you need to work in things like psycannons and nemesis force weapons some how, or maybe just give them a more specific anti-daemon WSR. It's also probably best to separate out the Chaos power rivalry stuff since there are other things that should probably have daemonic that it wouldn't make sense on, such as Avatars.
The Transport USR seems fine, though I would change 'may not carry more than one unit' to 'may not carry more than one unit unless specified otherwise', since there are superheavy transports that can carry more than one unit. Also I approve of the ignoring of access points, no more stormtroopers being stuck in their chimera because it got immobilised too close to a wall.
The thought has also occured to me that you're going to need to do something to the vehicle damage rules since many 40k vehicles have more than 3 weapons (e.g. a Leman Russ that likely has 4 or 5) just having a 'weapon damaged' block result and have the opponent choose which weapon as in 40k would seem simplest.
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Post by Adam on Jul 8, 2009 17:14:29 GMT -5
Having a daemonic USR makes as much sense as having an anti-daemon WSR I suppose, though you need to work in things like psycannons and nemesis force weapons some how, or maybe just give them a more specific anti-daemon WSR. It's also probably best to separate out the Chaos power rivalry stuff since there are other things that should probably have daemonic that it wouldn't make sense on, such as Avatars. Eh, attacks from psycannons/force weapons/nemesis weapons can simply count as attacks from a psychic power. The Transport USR seems fine, though I would change 'may not carry more than one unit' to 'may not carry more than one unit unless specified otherwise', since there are superheavy transports that can carry more than one unit. Also I approve of the ignoring of access points, no more stormtroopers being stuck in their chimera because it got immobilised too close to a wall. Don't worry about the 'unless specified otherwise'... there are plenty of special rules that modify core rules, so I'd have to add 'unless specified otherwise' to everything if I wanted to be sure there. Superheavies can turn up later. Ignoring access points is because of a very simple reason - it lets you use whatever model you want. The thought has also occured to me that you're going to need to do something to the vehicle damage rules since many 40k vehicles have more than 3 weapons (e.g. a Leman Russ that likely has 4 or 5) just having a 'weapon damaged' block result and have the opponent choose which weapon as in 40k would seem simplest. No, that's fine - one damage result can knock out both sponson weapons, for example (they work as a single weapon system) and I never really liked the system of choosing which weapon is affected, since it means tanks always lose the main weapon first and then have to drive around with a bunch of crap. Not bad if your bunch of crap is 3 heavy bolters or a pulse laser, but it sucks to be a Wave Serpent.
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Post by Peter on Jul 13, 2009 6:04:41 GMT -5
The choosing which weapon is lost rule is pretty horrible - I'll agree with that one. Baal Class Predator - Assault Cannon = A very weak devastator squad.
I like the idea of just handing out one daemonic USR - having a bunch of special rules all of which affect daemons could make sense if it was possible to get some of those rules without being a daemon, but in this case I think you're right.
As for the re-rolling psychic tests - what? The risk of using psychic powers is that a daemon might decide to manifest itself or attack the psyker - a rare occurence for the strongest psykers (I suggested not even including rules for it, except in the case of IG psykers and weirdboyz). Having daemons on the table isn't likely to make them harder to cast (unless the daemons are Khornate). I'd also suggest allowing Khornate daemons to suppress force powers as well, giving:
Disruption (x): Psychic powers always fail on a roll equal to or less than x. Additionally, a psychic test must be taken in order to use force powers.
Things like warlock powerrs would use the same rules as Force Powers in any event.
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Post by Adam on Jul 13, 2009 8:57:26 GMT -5
The point of daemons making psychic tests more difficult is that the warp mess-up necessary for daemons to cross over into the real world plays hell with psykers. Have you read Codex: Daemons? The fluff in there indicates daemonic incursions happen because of things like warp rifts. I guess summoning wouldn't have quite the same effect, in which case the psychic test re-roll could be forced only if the army is led by a daemon or comprised mostly of daemons (indicating a mass incursion). Disruption's a decent idea, although forcing psychic tests for Force powers is a bit pointless - not only can it mess up the MO of the entire army (as much of the Star Wars armies' tactics come from the heroes) but it doesn't make any sense. They're from two entirely different universes.
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Post by Peter on Jul 14, 2009 9:31:45 GMT -5
The point of daemons making psychic tests more difficult is that the warp mess-up necessary for daemons to cross over into the real world plays hell with psykers. Have you read Codex: Daemons? The fluff in there indicates daemonic incursions happen because of things like warp rifts. I guess summoning wouldn't have quite the same effect, in which case the psychic test re-roll could be forced only if the army is led by a daemon or comprised mostly of daemons (indicating a mass incursion). Disruption's a decent idea, although forcing psychic tests for Force powers is a bit pointless - not only can it mess up the MO of the entire army (as much of the Star Wars armies' tactics come from the heroes) but it doesn't make any sense. They're from two entirely different universes. The only real reason is consistency. It might not make sense within the fluff (although you may want to include some kind of anti-force force power, which would fit), but crossover games were never going to. And a build based on screwing up enemy supernatural awesome should probably work with all of the supernatural awesome the game supports, simply so the build doesn't get completely shut down by certain opponents. Also, as I pointed out, warlock powers would have more in common mechanically with force powers.
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Post by Adam on Jul 15, 2009 14:28:52 GMT -5
There will be no builds based on shutting down enemy supernatural awesome, for the reason that there will be builds based entirely on supernatural awesome and builds completely devoid of it. Daemons making life difficult for psykers is so they have it a little easier outmanoeuvring armies like Eldar, and for fluff reasons.
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Post by Oliver on Sept 17, 2009 18:30:26 GMT -5
One way to implement warp rifts and so forth on the tabletop could be to make Chaos Daemons Rare unless you buy a Warp Rift, which wouldn't be a unit but would have the negative effects on enemy psykers and would do things in the Situation phase - lightning strikes, moving terrain around, suppressing units at random - rolled off a table, which would affect both sides. I should also think that at least some non-CSM Chaos psykers would be vulnerable to having their heads explode like IG psykers and Weirdboyz.
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Post by Adam on Sept 18, 2009 13:39:42 GMT -5
It's not just IG and Orks who suffer Perils of the Warp damage, hell no. Chaos (maybe Tzeentch, maybe not), Space Marines, probably Eldar, and everyone else other than Tyranid synapse creatures will have to take psychic tests and as such be at risk of Perils of the Warp. The Warp Rift is a good idea. I think it could be easily incorporated into the Greater Daemons' rules, actually - if your army includes a Greater Daemon as one of its heroes, there's obviously a bigger incursion going on. Even easier, Daemons can be Auxilia ([greater daemon of their mark]). Saying that, CSM could technically summon a Greater Daemon and nothing else if they wanted, which wouldn't cause a warp rift. So perhaps I'll include Warp Rift as a trait. The idea behind this traits system is that you have several different types of army - nine in the case of the Chaos-boyz. These choose from lists of traits, and most types also have an extreme trait. Individual traits tend not to be straight-up upgrades - they replace other special rules, like the Veteran Sergeants' abilities in a Space Marine army, or have downsides and restrictions. Chaos, for example, might have five lists of traits - one for each Chaos Mark, of course. Any army can take Undivided traits, but access to the other traits is determined by which category you fall into. In Chaos' case, the system might look like this: So if Warp Rift is an Undivided trait, anyone and anything can have it. Then CSM become Rare, Cultists become Auxiliary and Daemons lose all restrictions. And I guess there can be beginning-of-turn shenanigans. Edit: Just thought of something else. From the beginning, the plan has been to have Cultists, mutants, etc as the army's Troops, and CSM as Elites. If you take a Chaos Lord, CSM become Troops. I could do something similar by putting Daemons in the elite section; chances are they'll be immune to suppression anyway, so Dogged won't matter, and Veteran is on-profile. Then, if you take a Greater Daemon, Daemons become troops. So you can have two kinds of warp rifts - ones where the warp is weak, the minds of people have been twisted into cultism, and said cultists have allowed daemons to come through; and full-on incursions where the Immaterium explodes into the real world and engulfs a planet.
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