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Post by dragonlord on Sept 27, 2009 14:28:10 GMT -5
I think perhaps I was confusing myself. Though if the Berserkers have two actions and charge the Thousand Sons as one action and the Thousand Sons then run away could the Berserkers not just charge them again as their second action? Or would the Thousand Sons running cause the Berserkers to forfeit their second action?
The other problem with this from a background point of view is that Rubric marines are supposed to be basically automata that are rather slow to react and move, which is slightly at odds with them being able to run away from Berserkers in combat.
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Post by Oliver on Sept 27, 2009 14:31:48 GMT -5
I can see how the rule would work, but it wouldn't be very rubric marine-y: Thousand Sons are meant to be slow and purposeful automata, not leaping out of the way of chainswords like matadors. Maybe they could be allowed to move out of combat freely and have a renamed version of Droid, but don't have Brawler and Veteran (assuming CSM get those like imperial space marines) and are slower than normal marines? I think they'd be different enough from Nurgle marines because the Nurgle ones would be pretty nasty in CC (at least as hard as normal CSM), whereas the Thousand Sons wouldn't be all that, even if they both got Armour/Fortitude bonuses. It'd make it harder to do the this: Also, it lets you do this: - KB #1 charges TS #1, kills 1-2, rubrics run away. - TS #1 moves over and shoots up KB #2. - KB #2 charges either unit, causes considerably less damage than KB #1 due to having been hosed down with inferno bolts. Whichever unit it charges moves out of the way. - TS #2 shoots the crap out of what's left of KB #2, probably wiping them out. but not impossible, since TS#1 is yet to move when they're first charged. It'd just mean you'd have to keep a character around to Command or cast movement spells on the Rubric marines, which is as it should be. Also, for inferno bolts, to save messing with dozens of templates, they could have a rule a bit like Grinder in DoS, where they get extra free hits depending on how much hitting they do - an extra free hit for every two hits in the salvo, for example. And they don't use them in close combat because they explode.
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Post by Adam on Sept 28, 2009 7:53:25 GMT -5
I think perhaps I was confusing myself. Though if the Berserkers have two actions and charge the Thousand Sons as one action and the Thousand Sons then run away could the Berserkers not just charge them again as their second action? Or would the Thousand Sons running cause the Berserkers to forfeit their second action? You can't run twice in a turn, so no. (Charge isn't an action any more, remember, it's just a special rule that gives you free attacks when you become engaged.) The Berserkers don't necessarily have to forfeit their second action - if, for example, they have that upgrade that lets them run twice in a turn (how coincidental ;D) they can indeed charge in again, or they could take cover, or whatever. Normally, though, their second round of melee attacks would be useless because they'd be no longer engaged. The other problem with this from a background point of view is that Rubric marines are supposed to be basically automata that are rather slow to react and move, which is slightly at odds with them being able to run away from Berserkers in combat. I can see how the rule would work, but it wouldn't be very rubric marine-y: Thousand Sons are meant to be slow and purposeful automata, not leaping out of the way of chainswords like matadors. How do you know they're running away? Chances are, they're teleporting, or stepping through the Warp. Maybe they could be allowed to move out of combat freely and have a renamed version of Droid, but don't have Brawler and Veteran (assuming CSM get those like imperial space marines) and are slower than normal marines? I think they'd be different enough from Nurgle marines because the Nurgle ones would be pretty nasty in CC (at least as hard as normal CSM), whereas the Thousand Sons wouldn't be all that, even if they both got Armour/Fortitude bonuses. TSons won't have melee weapons, so Brawler is useless on them anyway (and in any case, I'm considering dropping it from Marines in general, because I have to give all their weapons crappy Power values to compensate and it makes them look bad). They'll certainly get Veteran tho'. Immunity to suppression is good. I'm still not convinced that giving them Plague Marine stats is the way to go, though; I want to give them a more esoteric feel than that. It'd just mean you'd have to keep a character around to Command or cast movement spells on the Rubric marines, which is as it should be. This ability will probably be one used by the Sorcerer leading the TSons squad. He has to choose between it and whatever else he does (the Sorcerer will be able to cast spells while the TSons shoot), and it lasts until the unit's next activation. It requires at least some thought. Bear in mind that we're looking at Tzeentchian protective measures here - this is just another way to make this elite army a little less of a steamroll. Even though they're Space Marines, they're likely to be 40+ points for five guys, if you include the Sorcerer. I don't want them to be ridiculously tough, because despite their apparent slowness (Speed 3 or 4, not decided yet, but probably 4, as 3 is just a *little* too slow) the army has a lot of mobility and likes to mess around with your battleplan, so the focus becomes on protecting them by putting them where the bullets aren't, rather than watching bullets bounce off them while laughing maniacally. Also, for inferno bolts, to save messing with dozens of templates, they could have a rule a bit like Grinder in DoS, where they get extra free hits depending on how much hitting they do - an extra free hit for every two hits in the salvo, for example. And they don't use them in close combat because they explode. This is good. Sear (2) is a useful alternative. I guess they'd be able to switch between inferno and normal ammo. Haha, wait! The Sorcerer can activate various runes on his squad's weapons. Each time they fire, he can (instead of casting a spell) enhance the firepower of his boyz' bolters. Inferno runes give +2 Power, Twisting runes give Sear (2) (the mutation induced by the bolts spreads over the target like a virus) and so on. You'll have to choose between that and running/teleporting away like girls when you get hit in melee. (At least, once during your turn.) So an Aspiring Sorcerer might have two or three runes, a doombolt/bolt of change attack, the disengagement trick, and probably another movement spell and/or a debuff. And, of course, a gun and (optional, cheap) force weapon. Et voila: you have to think about them all of a sudden.
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Post by Oliver on Sept 30, 2009 10:03:36 GMT -5
That sounds pretty cool, but it'd make for one hell of a pricey unit. Will the Aspiring Sorceror be restricted to only casting one spell a turn? That might make using these guys as Troops in a Thousand Sons army a lot more practical.
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Post by Adam on Sept 30, 2009 12:55:25 GMT -5
Aspiring Sorcerer gets two Actions, so two spells a turn (if he has a powerful movement spell, it'll be OPT, don't worry). And yes, these guys are meant to be pricey; they're very elite. Thousand Sons squads aren't cheap in normal 40K - five guys including a Sorcerer run you up a ridiculous 152 points without any upgrades at all (23 points a model for your normal guys IIRC, and 60 for mister wizard and his force stick). I'm thinking about 30-32 points for five TSons without their Sorcerer, as they're just tougher Space Marines with different weapons, with the Sorcerer upgrade adding another ten points or so to the unit. A Thousand Son unit's ability to teleport/cast doombolt/whatever and still fire a salvo of bolters downrange is a rare thing; no Hero can do this. I'm also considering giving Thousand Sons better bolters to begin with to compensate for their lack of close combat potency, and to make them more expensive; a range increase is certainly warranted and it's tempting to up their Power or rate of fire as well. The Sorcerer's runic abilities go on top of this, making them a real threat.
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Post by dragonlord on Oct 1, 2009 7:21:15 GMT -5
I'm not sure if making their bolters better as well as giving them runic abilities is really necessary, it might be overkill. Other than it all seems fine (including your suggestions for the runes).
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Post by Adam on Oct 1, 2009 8:27:14 GMT -5
You may be right - I'm just thinking out loud most of the time
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