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Chaos
Sept 21, 2009 8:25:37 GMT -5
Post by Adam on Sept 21, 2009 8:25:37 GMT -5
Here follows the Chaos unit list. There's a LOT of designing to be done here... ;D
++Chaos Marines Good old CSM. CSM will take a more specialised role than their previous incarnations. Powerful but expensive, they are by and large the Chaos army's easiest way to deal damage. They are very resilient and crushingly powerful in close combat, and come with heavy weapons, tanks and cult units. An all-CSM army can be unlocked by taking a CSM Hero, although they benefit from having cultists around, both to help cover board space and to sacrifice when necessary. A Daemonless army will certainly not lack for melee power - a unit or two of CSM in the midst of a horde of cultists can happily lay the righteous smack down. Hero: Chaos Lord/Daemon Prince - beatstick with one or two extremely useful tactical abilities (can be changed or expanded via traits) Hero: Sorcerer Lord - debuff/disruption machine with some deadly attack options Troops: CSM - extremely mutable entry allowing for any Mark Troops: Havocs - also mutable, gain lesser benefits from god-Marks, max of 1 squad per CSM squad Elites: Chosen - similar god-Mark benefits to CSM, very powerful unit, tactically useful like SM Veterans Elites: Terminators - likewise Elites: Possessed - BRUTAL close-combat ass-kickers Elites: Raptors - flying support units with a similar role to Assault Marines, but different disruptive techniques Elites: Obliterators - we shoot anything, inc. Bikes: Have a guess Vehicle: Rhino - unit support Vehicle: Battle Tank - Predator/Vindicator Vehicle: Defiler - probably the most lethal Chaos vehicle Vehicle: Dreadnought - needs a slightly better insanity rule... Vehicle: Land Raider - what it normally is, a moving hill with lascannons on
++Daemons Daemons in 40K are a bit of a cheat, I think, especially Bloodletters. In the 3.5 'dex, they far outstripped the Chaos Marines summoning them when it came to killing things, leading to the Daemonbomb tactic, and Bloodletters didn't even suffer from being less resilient due to their 3+ save loincloths. Now, CSM get an extra attack but the Daemons still have power weapons, Rending and tons of attacks to begin with, and they're cheaper than they used to be. So in my army list, I'd like to make them more subtle. CSM should be the rampaging, brutal crushers; Daemons fight with the skill and gifts of their patron gods. So, each type of daemon will be more specialised, and have a special rule or two that makes them more tactical on the table - not the least of which is the way they deploy, which is similar to the way they do now. An all-Daemon army can be unlocked by taking a Greater Daemon, or a Herald if you plan on using one god to the partial exclusion of the others. Daemonic Elites are generally faster, more concentrated versions of the troops, with the notable exception of Bloodcrushers. Hero: Greater Daemon (x4) - close combat death dealers or sorcerous support Hero: Herald (x4) - likewise, to a lesser extent Troops: Bloodletters - anti-elite infantry; Hellblades make high armour less useful by always successfully causing damage on a roll of X+ Troops: Daemonettes - pin down and dissect basic infantry units Troops: Plaguebearers - soak up damage and spread disease, are slow and have a pathetic attack but units suffer for being near them Troops: Horrors - shoot things to pieces with warpfire, unpredictable Elites: Bloodcrushers - bigger, faster Bloodletters that can ride down infantry Elites: Fiends of Slaanesh - seek out isolated enemy units and kill them, or support Daemonettes Elites: Beasts of Nurgle - inexpensive, so useful for bolstering your Nurgle's Rot board control Elites: Flamers - like Horrors but with AOE attacks and more abilities; versatile as well as unpredictable Bikes: Flesh Hounds - cheap melee unit with a similar role to Fiends Bikes: Seekers - faster Daemonettes made for chasing other fast units Bikes: Screamers - great for disruption Bikes: Furies - cheap undivided daemons useful for mobbing things alongside mortal or CSM troops Vehicle: Soulgrinder - like it is now, a deepstriking Defiler with different weapon layouts
(Nurglings will work like Tyranid Rippers; heroes can summon swarms of Nurglings as an action, and you get a number of swarms relative to the number of Nurgle Daemon units in the army.)
++Mortals Mortals are the cheapest of the Chaos units, generally speaking, and while fieldable all on their own, are best when helped out by Daemons or CSM, because they generally have a hard time cracking tough targets. In a mostly-CSM or mostly-Daemon army, they help take up board space, give cheap Icons and tarpit units, and of course, amp up your army's power levels using Sacrificial Rites. Keep track of the number of models killed by models with this special rule and the number of models with it that die. For each X such models (normally 10), you gain a sacrifice point, which can be spent (typically by Heroes) to use or upgrade certain abilities. Lost and the Damned armies are comprised mostly of Mortals. Mortal units can't quite be given Marks of Chaos, but they can have 'marked' Icons, which give them similar (less significant) benefits. Hero: Prophet - all round Mortal hero with reasonable combat ability as well as buffs/movement spells Hero: High Magus - comparatively-cheap and effective sorcerer hero Troops: Cultists - extremely cheap and in number; an army's main source of sacrifice points Troops: Mutants - tougher and better at fighting than Cultists, but lack Sacrifical Rites Troops: Zombies - ye old cannibal corpses, cheapass and slow but deploy via Commando Elites: Channellers - a small coven of witches who aid in the summoning of daemons as well as providing magical support Elites: Children of the Apostle - elite cultists with better weapons and skills, good at sacrificing enemy troops Elites: Spawn/Big Mutants - mostly bullet sponges Vehicle: Thresher - improvised attack vehicle, has blades all over it and mostly kills things by running into/over them Vehicle: Zombie Cannon - walking hellcannon-type thing, can be fuelled by your own men to make it powerful
(Edited. I removed Cult Marines as a separate unit choice.)
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Chaos
Sept 21, 2009 17:28:22 GMT -5
Post by dragonlord on Sept 21, 2009 17:28:22 GMT -5
Sounds good so far, are you going to have a distinction between marked Chaos Marines and Legion Marines though? I ask mostly because of the problem of Thousand Sons rubric marines being unique to the Thousand Sons and not possible to replicate, as you may remember not being able to have non-Thousand Son Tzeentchian marines was one of the problems with the 3.5 codex. You could perhaps do the Legion Marines the way the current Chaos codex does it, have a standard Chaos marine entry that is mutable by applying marks but then also have the Legion marines separate, and possibly make Legion marines only available to the Cult armies.
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Chaos
Sept 22, 2009 5:27:54 GMT -5
Post by Oliver on Sept 22, 2009 5:27:54 GMT -5
You forgot Zombies and the Zombie Cannon - possibly they could be Nurgle Cult units only. You could perhaps do the Legion Marines the way the current Chaos codex does it, have a standard Chaos marine entry that is mutable by applying marks but then also have the Legion marines separate, and possibly make Legion marines only available to the Cult armies. Seconded - you need to be able to do a Thousand Sons force and also miscellaneous Tzeentch CSMs. The other legion marines don't seem as vital, but it's probably only fair to include them too.
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Chaos
Sept 22, 2009 14:13:49 GMT -5
Post by Adam on Sept 22, 2009 14:13:49 GMT -5
Eh... Zombies. Yes I did forget Zombies. Deliberately. They can be part of the Mutant entry instead, combining two very similar units into one unit and an optional upgrade. As to the Zombie Cannon... okay, fine. It's in. You could perhaps do the Legion Marines the way the current Chaos codex does it, have a standard Chaos marine entry that is mutable by applying marks but then also have the Legion marines separate That was the original intention. I realised however that it'd be a lot harder to make a cohesively Cult army if there were specifically Cult units. Much of the complaint of the new 'dex is that cult Terminators, Bikers, Raptors, etc, don't get the proper benefits and you end up with a badly fitting army where the only cult troops are just that, the troops. Instead I can go the easier route of making Rubric status an upgrade to Tzeentch-marked models, and unless traits say otherwise it's basic CSM only and makes them elites, and leave it at that. and possibly make Legion marines only available to the Cult armies. That'd be unnecessarily harsh - after all, Cult Marines often ally with other armies (probably for a price, or in exchange for other allied units) due to the nature of CSM forces, and it's not unfeasible to assume that Berserkers et al exist outside of full-blown Cults of Blood.
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Chaos
Sept 22, 2009 16:31:48 GMT -5
Post by dragonlord on Sept 22, 2009 16:31:48 GMT -5
I see your point regarding the problem with getting Terminators, Bikes, etc to fit as well as the basic marines, making Rubric an upgrade to models with the mark of Tzeentch would be a solution. The same could be done with making full noise marine, berserker and plague marine status upgrades to basic marked units, for example a perhaps unit doesn't become a proper noise marine unit unless they upgrade their weapons to sonic ones, upgrading to berserkers gives you berserker glaives and upgrading to plague marine gives you feel no pain.
I see you point that restricting Cult marines entirely to Cult armies might be a bit too harsh, but perhaps limiting the number of Cult units allowed in non-cult armies would be reasonable?
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Chaos
Sept 23, 2009 5:02:32 GMT -5
Post by Adam on Sept 23, 2009 5:02:32 GMT -5
I see your point regarding the problem with getting Terminators, Bikes, etc to fit as well as the basic marines, making Rubric an upgrade to models with the mark of Tzeentch would be a solution. The same could be done with making full noise marine, berserker and plague marine status upgrades to basic marked units, for example a perhaps unit doesn't become a proper noise marine unit unless they upgrade their weapons to sonic ones, upgrading to berserkers gives you berserker glaives and upgrading to plague marine gives you feel no pain. Allow me to explain a bit more. You'll presumably remember the old Books of Chaos system (if not, a quick look through the 3.5 Codex should refresh your memory). Each Mark of Chaos offered units bearing it a number of optional upgrades. Not all of them were available to infantry in general, but some of them were - chainaxes, sonic blasters, and Feel no Pain (for Khorne oddly enough). This is my plan. A model with the Mark of Khorne gains some martial benefit (let's say Onslaught) and must get into melee wherever possible. A model with the Mark of Nurgle gains +1 Armour and can't be instakilled by Pr10+ hits, but suffers -1 Swiftness. A model with the Mark of Slaanesh might gain +1 Speed. A model with the Mark of Tzeentch gains... something. These basic effects can then be added to by buying Mark-specific upgrades. Your average Khornate CSM unit might get (some of) these options: - Chainaxe - better melee weapon - Collar of Khorne - +2 Swiftness against psychic attacks - Decapitation - Critical Fatality on all melee attacks - Inchoate Rage - can run twice in a turn Whereas a Slaaneshiite* can buy: - Alluring Haze - +1 Swiftness in close combat - Deadly Caress - Reactive Strike vs. troops and elites - Kiss of Pain - Suppressive fire damage rolls** don't suffer the Power penalty - Sonic Blaster *Two i's = deliberate misspelling. Stupid word filter. I'd get rid of it, but I want to be family friendly just in case we get more than four or five active members someday... **It's something sonic weapons can do. Et cetera. So your units can be as cult as you want them to be, especially with traits. I see you point that restricting Cult marines entirely to Cult armies might be a bit too harsh, but perhaps limiting the number of Cult units allowed in non-cult armies would be reasonable? Yeah... you can't have more units of any one Mark than you have of Undivided units, or something. The reverse would occur in the 'godly' armies.
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Chaos
Sept 23, 2009 6:33:54 GMT -5
Post by Oliver on Sept 23, 2009 6:33:54 GMT -5
Eh... Zombies. Yes I did forget Zombies. Deliberately. They can be part of the Mutant entry instead, combining two very similar units into one unit and an optional upgrade. I think we had this conversation a few months ago, and it turned out that actually zombies wouldn't be anything like Mutants - they'd have different characteristics and special rules (eg. they can't make any special movement actions like running, hence the need for the Zombie Cannon and/or an upgrade - Bucket o' Zombies - that lets transports hold loads of them, so they can actually get to places), so it'd probably be more user-friendly to just have a separate profile for them so that you don't have to keep on adding and taking away bonuses etc. from the Mutant profile. Plus Zombies can't swarm with Mutants. Sorry to be a bore about this, but it just seems messy to cram two different units into one profile. And Zombies are awesome
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Chaos
Sept 23, 2009 8:43:33 GMT -5
Post by dragonlord on Sept 23, 2009 8:43:33 GMT -5
Another approriate Slaaneshi trait would be something that lowers the swiftness of enemies in close combat. Something like the old 'fuelled by pain' Slaanesh minor psychic power that gives you extra attacks in close combat for every wound caused on the Slaaneshi unit/character that is saved by their armour would also be appropriate. A Skill characteristic upgrade would be quite Slaaneshi, as Slaaneshi followers are often perfectionists, conversely Khornate units getting more attacks in close combat would better represent the shear rage and violence of Khorne.
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Chaos
Sept 23, 2009 13:08:23 GMT -5
Post by Adam on Sept 23, 2009 13:08:23 GMT -5
I think we had this conversation a few months ago, and it turned out that actually zombies wouldn't be anything like Mutants - they'd have different characteristics and special rules (eg. they can't make any special movement actions like running, hence the need for the Zombie Cannon and/or an upgrade - Bucket o' Zombies - that lets transports hold loads of them, so they can actually get to places), so it'd probably be more user-friendly to just have a separate profile for them so that you don't have to keep on adding and taking away bonuses etc. from the Mutant profile. Plus Zombies can't swarm with Mutants. Sorry to be a bore about this, but it just seems messy to cram two different units into one profile. And Zombies are awesome Oh well. At least I get to call them Cannibal Corpses now (I reckon it's worth trying to get as many metal/death metal band names into the Chaos list as possible. Especially really bad/geeky ones like Bolt Thrower) and yeah, you're probably right. Very well; zombies as a separate choice it is. *Edit* The main problem with Chaos having quite so many options is what I'm trying to do with, well, all of the armies. I want them to be cohesive, tactical and flexible. Chaos is just so diverse that giving units individual roles and tactics (and fitting those together into an army that I'll be satisfied with) when there's 40+ of them is going to be maddeningly hard. Especially when fluffwise most of them are only there to kill stuff. Some units are inevitably going to be overlooked in favour of other, mathematically better ones. Possessed for example. Either they're going to be better than Khorne Berserkers, or they aren't.* So to this end I'll give Zombies a different role: advance tarpitting. Zombies are slow and crap, but they deploy further forward, possibly using Commando (they're already on the battlefield - they're just reanimated corpses, either of previous battles or of the place's inhabitants). So they distract and slow up the enemy, catching bullets and providing cover, while the rest of your stuff moves forward. *As I typed this I came up with an awesome idea. Possessed can be disguised in units, like Night Goblin Fanatics. You buy them for pretty cheap and they appear on the battlefield a bit like Greater Daemons - just burst randomly out of another CSM unit whenever you want them to. Then the slaughter begins. They're too manic/deranged/in pain/hungry for souls to capture objectives, but they'll happily shred through anything in their way, up to and including light vehicles... Another approriate Slaaneshi trait would be something that lowers the swiftness of enemies in close combat. Something like the old 'fuelled by pain' Slaanesh minor psychic power that gives you extra attacks in close combat for every wound caused on the Slaaneshi unit/character that is saved by their armour would also be appropriate. A Skill characteristic upgrade would be quite Slaaneshi, as Slaaneshi followers are often perfectionists, conversely Khornate units getting more attacks in close combat would better represent the shear rage and violence of Khorne. Bear in mind two things (forgive my lecturing): Traits aren't straight up *better*. Just different. As an example, Slaaneshiites debuffing enemies' Swiftness in melee is a no go when it comes to traits (that's pretty much the same as a Skill bonus, anyway), but as an action similar to the Behold Our Virulence idea I put up for Nurgle in the other thread, it could work. And Slaanesh armies aren't all-out melee. I have it in mind like this: - Khorne - graaagh kill maim burn, etc etc - all-out melee. - Nurgle - resilience and attrition - Tzeentch - sorcery and putting rubrics where they need to be; probably the most elite of the Marked armies - Slaanesh - mobile firepower This is for a couple of reasons. First and foremost, it makes all the Marks different. Slaaneshiites being very good at hitting things in melee, in practice, isn't that much different to Khornates hitting things many times in melee. Second, mobile-firepower infantry builds almost don't exist in 40K (Deathwing and Emperor's Children are pretty much the sum total of it, even in the fluff) whereas Infinite Frontier, with its complete lack of Rapid Fire weapons, is ideally suited to it. Slaanesh armies, with their misdirection and suppression abilities, strike me as the kind of build that can trap and pin an enemy force at 12"-16" away and pick units off like plucking wings off a trapped insect, while dancing out of the way of retaliation. If they get in melee, they're hardly shabby there either. What could be a nice Slaanesh trait is that when a Slaaneshi unit makes a Drive action (see the new rulebook), they don't have to move. You can move the enemy unit out of engagement with you and shoot them silly. Sounds quite powerful, until you remember that it's basically a less dependable version of Disengage, but it's cool and has its uses. Fuelled by Pain sounds fun. A unit that takes wounds in close combat immediately makes a number of attacks equal to the amount of wounds or the amount of surviving models, whichever's the least, at the end of the activation of the guys wounding them. It'd have to be a unit upgrade though, because it's way too good to be a trait; it's basically a deterrent to anything that costs less than 25 points getting into melee with them. It could even have the disadvantage that a unit can't make melee attacks unless it was damaged (or possibly attacked) since its last activation. Perfect for the mobile firepower armies, again. It's a CC ability, but it's a powerful psychological tool - and isn't that the most Slaaneshi (or Chaosy) thing one could have?
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Chaos
Sept 23, 2009 16:34:51 GMT -5
Post by dragonlord on Sept 23, 2009 16:34:51 GMT -5
Fair enough, I'm not making much distinction between traits, actions and upgrades really, just throwing out suggestions.
I'm not entirely sure I approve of Slaanesh being mobile firepower based, that seems more like Tzeentch to me, albeit that firepower probably being sorcerous in nature, Horrors and Flamers are the only lesser daemons that have ranged weapons after all. Daemonettes and Fiends manage to be different enough from Bloodletters and Blood Crushers. Slaanesh can certainly have an element of mobile firepower to it, sonic weaponry is one of their trademarks, but you can't disregard the melee aspects of Slaanesh.
Also as for mobile firepower builds not existing in 40k how about the Tau? a battlesuit heavy Tau army with devilfish mounted firewarriors is the epitomy of mobile firepower.
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Chaos
Sept 24, 2009 12:19:07 GMT -5
Post by Adam on Sept 24, 2009 12:19:07 GMT -5
Think about the full Slaanesh experience as one of the mind screw armies. Disrupt, slow and suppress the enemy, pinning them in place while your CSM squads dance around them and the daemonettes pounce on isolated units. Slaanesh daemons are indeed melee troopers, but the CSM are balanced or shooty, giving a mixed army overall that can be themed in either direction. Tzeentch, on the other hand, won't be so much mobile firepower as "oh look I'm over here now!" firepower, like Eldar with invisible tanks. Lots of movement tricks, summoning daemons to greatly increase the firepower in one area of board, blowing the enemy up with spells and maintaining an unpredictable shifting battle line. A Tzeentch army is hard to catch because it can be anywhere it wants next turn; a Slaanesh army is hard to catch because they're always *just* out of reach, dancing away from you, slowing you so you can't catch them, hiding around corners waiting to pounce.
And I wouldn't say that Daemonettes and Bloodletters are *that* different. They're kind of like Howling Banshees and Striking Scorpions, only with some of the relative advantages/disadvantages switched around. Essentially, they do exactly the same thing: deepstrike in, pray they don't die to the following turn of shooting, then get in melee and rip stuff up. The only difference is in their preferred targets, which admittedly is significant in 40K, but not quite different enough for my aspirations. In IF I'd like the hypnotic, paralysing allure of Daemonettes to be represented in some tactically useful form, while Bloodletters are tougher and cause more damage against their chosen targets, but are less subtle, and more easily destroyed by shooting if they can't get in melee.
Tau? Tau infantry can't move and fire to save their lives, unless the opponent's within 12" for most of the game but magnanimously decides he doesn't want to assault. Sure, they can jump out of transports and shoot, but anyone can do that. An army comprised entirely of battlesuits could certainly pull it off very well, but those don't exist due to the vagaries of the Force Organisation chart. See, I'm a fan of all- or mostly-infantry armies (plus walkers, I like walkers). They're different, look cool, play cohesively, and transported armies can't really pull off the mobile firepower trick quite so well - you have to disembark, shoot up close, risk getting shot/assaulted in return, then re-embark and move away, being unable to disembark and attack again until next turn. Granted, you can be 24" away next turn, but your opponent's autocannons will surely have something to say on the matter and a roll of 4+ on a penetrating hit scuppers that unit.
It's a bit easier in IF. Vehicles have wounds and absorb fairly predictable amounts of firepower, like Carnifexes. Shorter ranges and increased mobility in units are the order of the day, and you don't have to be a Khorne Berserker to cause damage in melee. Nevertheless, there's a lot to be said for a 40K army that can keep moving, maintain cohesion regardless of vehicle damage results, and hover at 18"-24", blasting the enemy every turn. That's what I mean by a mobile (infantry) firepower army.
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Chaos
Sept 25, 2009 17:38:43 GMT -5
Post by dragonlord on Sept 25, 2009 17:38:43 GMT -5
Yes I suppose I can see your intention with Slaanesh and the difference with your planned Tzeentchian army.
I may be misremembering but I think pulse carbines, which Firewarriors can have and pathfinders always have are assault 18" weapons, which would be better for mobile firepower than the standard pulse rifles, but yes the battlesuits are the main thing.
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Chaos
Sept 26, 2009 6:19:01 GMT -5
Post by Adam on Sept 26, 2009 6:19:01 GMT -5
Yeah, pulse carbines are 18", Assault 1 Pinning - although you can only equip half a squad with them, I think. Maybe less. We do need to allow Tau to use all-battlesuit armies... have you seen the new Forge World XV9?
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Chaos
Oct 23, 2009 10:20:04 GMT -5
Post by Oliver on Oct 23, 2009 10:20:04 GMT -5
Here's an idea for Beasts of Nurgle: make them blow up, like the weird bubbly zombies in Halo. And/or they can somehow provide Nurglings - at the very least, they allow you to take an extra base, and possibly they could spawn bases of them. Or that could be part of the blowing-up - they explode and are then replaced by nurglings, making them much more annoying for your opponent than they would otherwise deserve to be, because a) they blow up and don't scatter, and b) they then tie down what's left of the unit they inflicted themselves upon.
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Chaos
Oct 23, 2009 14:14:04 GMT -5
Post by Adam on Oct 23, 2009 14:14:04 GMT -5
Ha, that's a good idea! Kind of like Nox Carriers from Battleforge... (battering ram unit that sacrifices itself when it makes its ram attack, but does loads of damage to structures it runs into, and spawns two infantry units from the remains. It's still crap though).
Maybe not an explosion per se, as we seem to have loads of self-destructing units already. That's fine, it's Chaos after all, but it'd be nice to have all the self-destructions work differently, haha. So far we have: - Cultists getting killed by Aspiring Champions (Purge the Weak) - Mutants overloading themselves (Fatal Prayer until someone invents a better name - see below) - Zombies being fired out of cannons - Fanatics in Cult units - Channellers 'accidentally' dropping Horrific Eruptions on your own units, or rolling a triple on a psychic power and exploding (they need some kind of amusing random consequence table too, by the way) - Spawn blowing themselves up (actually, the more I think of it, the more the idea of firing Spawn out of Zombie Cannons to stack two templates on an enemy squad sounds actually pretty funny instead of broken) - There should be a unit, or at least a spell, that makes things explode when it kills them - probably a Daemon in the former case, perhaps the Bloodthirster to make it more efficient at mowing down infantry
With regards to Mutants overloading themselves - did we decide these guys were going to blow up afterwards or not? I can't remember. I think it could work nicely anyway. We can balance it in terms of sacrifice-factory tactics because: a) It's a fairly expenditious tactic (you have to lose, at the very least, 11 points of Mutants to cause a bunch of hits on your cultists, although if they explode when they use Fatal Prayer I'll bump their points costs up by another point or two anyway) b) It's pretty funny c) If the worst came to the worst, we could always make it not provide sacrifice points (I'd say 'only affect enemy units', but that's not how Chaos rolls) d) It's a useful counter to your opponent simply avoiding killing your Cultists e) To be fair, sneaky ways to kill your own units form half the tactics of the Mortal list, because the heroes and daemonbombings become so much better with them, the enemy's going to put effort into limiting your sacrifice pool, and getting sacrifices by doing the killing really doesn't work all that well with crappy Cultists
More Cultist rules to help force the enemy's hand into sacrificing them for you: - Press On: Enemy soldier models cannot move out of close combat with Cultists by any means. (Granted by Aspiring Champions and/or spells - from Channellers perhaps?) - Meatshield: You know Channellers' Lead from the Back rule? They gain double the cover bonus from intervening friendly units? Everyone gets that from Cultists, even units of one or two guys provided they can block off enough LOS to provide cover.
So, back to Beasts of Nurgle. IF doesn't have a flamer template, but an attack similar to that would be quite good. Maybe draw a line and move a small blast template a few inches in that direction (which is pretty powerful, it'd be low Power, or something neat like Power 0 with Armour Piercing so it rolls against half the target's Ar). Then place Nurglings within 2" of any model(s) hit by the template (if it hits nobody, no swarms are spawned) - probably 3 bases per Beast.
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Chaos
Oct 23, 2009 17:29:56 GMT -5
Post by dragonlord on Oct 23, 2009 17:29:56 GMT -5
I quite like the idea of Beasts of Nurgle spawning Nurglings, but I'd say make it just be something like when a Beast dies replace it with x Nurgling bases. I agree that Chaos killing more of their own stuff is somewhat in character but too may explosions on death would slow the game down. If you want to make the Bloodthirster more efficient at killing infantry I would suggest giving it a rule more like the fancy new Space Wolf weapon that gives you a number of extra attacks equal to the number of models you killed last turn. This would fit the Bloodthirster fairly well, having it start off relatively slowly and then build into a massacre inducing killing frenzy. An explosion on death spell might work, target the first model and if it dies centre a template on it.
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Chaos
Oct 23, 2009 19:22:36 GMT -5
Post by Oliver on Oct 23, 2009 19:22:36 GMT -5
So far we have: - Cultists getting killed by Aspiring Champions (Purge the Weak) - Mutants overloading themselves (Fatal Prayer until someone invents a better name - see below) - Zombies being fired out of cannons - Fanatics in Cult units - Channellers 'accidentally' dropping Horrific Eruptions on your own units, or rolling a triple on a psychic power and exploding (they need some kind of amusing random consequence table too, by the way) - Spawn blowing themselves up (actually, the more I think of it, the more the idea of firing Spawn out of Zombie Cannons to stack two templates on an enemy squad sounds actually pretty funny instead of broken) Remember that half the point of the Zombie Cannon is to get zombies across the board, although it is pretty suicidal. Spawn could auto-die when you fire them so you don't get the same problem that Zombies would create of having a billion units all of a sudden if they didn't all activate after everything else. With regards to Mutants overloading themselves - did we decide these guys were going to blow up afterwards or not? I can't remember. I think it could work nicely anyway. We can balance it in terms of sacrifice-factory tactics because: a) It's a fairly expenditious tactic (you have to lose, at the very least, 11 points of Mutants to cause a bunch of hits on your cultists, although if they explode when they use Fatal Prayer I'll bump their points costs up by another point or two anyway) b) It's pretty funny c) If the worst came to the worst, we could always make it not provide sacrifice points (I'd say 'only affect enemy units', but that's not how Chaos rolls) d) It's a useful counter to your opponent simply avoiding killing your Cultists e) To be fair, sneaky ways to kill your own units form half the tactics of the Mortal list, because the heroes and daemonbombings become so much better with them, the enemy's going to put effort into limiting your sacrifice pool, and getting sacrifices by doing the killing really doesn't work all that well with crappy Cultists More Cultist rules to help force the enemy's hand into sacrificing them for you: - Press On: Enemy soldier models cannot move out of close combat with Cultists by any means. (Granted by Aspiring Champions and/or spells - from Channellers perhaps?) - Meatshield: You know Channellers' Lead from the Back rule? They gain double the cover bonus from intervening friendly units? Everyone gets that from Cultists, even units of one or two guys provided they can block off enough LOS to provide cover. Exploding Mutants could be pretty amusing, but i see Dragonlord's point about too many death-templates slowing the game down. Maybe give them a free sergeant, with no bonuses but the template-on-death is a 5" one centred on him, so you don't have to mess around with half a dozen 3" templates. Good call on the extra Cultist rules, by the way, but Press On might make a cultist-and-zombie-heavy force into one enormous tarpit. Actually that might be okay, gameplay-wise. dragonlord: Nice idea for the Bloodthirster, it's definitely a characterful rule.
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Chaos
Oct 23, 2009 19:52:47 GMT -5
Post by Adam on Oct 23, 2009 19:52:47 GMT -5
I quite like the idea of Beasts of Nurgle spawning Nurglings, but I'd say make it just be something like when a Beast dies replace it with x Nurgling bases. I agree that Chaos killing more of their own stuff is somewhat in character but too may explosions on death would slow the game down. If you want to make the Bloodthirster more efficient at killing infantry I would suggest giving it a rule more like the fancy new Space Wolf weapon that gives you a number of extra attacks equal to the number of models you killed last turn. This would fit the Bloodthirster fairly well, having it start off relatively slowly and then build into a massacre inducing killing frenzy. An explosion on death spell might work, target the first model and if it dies centre a template on it. You're right... words of wisdom there sirrah. Good idea on the Bloodthirster, too - I guess the bonus attacks apply at the end of its activation, or are made as an ability for ease of timing and versatility (might be a bit too versatile, you'll have to think about it more if it's an end-of-activation ability), and it starts off with 3 Actions and a one-attack, (Critical-)Fatality-causing axe, plus Charge. Couple the escalating attacks with its speed and it can happily munch through enemy units all afternoon. I dunno though, I kind of want the Beast of Nurgle to be able to spew bile everywhere. I guess a template's a bit unnecessary when one could use a radial attack, or better still, if it spews bile normally (with the profile of a mediocre Flamer) then it could make a +2" Range, +2 Power attack on the closest unit (friend or foe?) upon death and turn into a bunch of Nurglings, and if it kills any enemies from a target unit, the Nurglings may be placed within 2" of (the position of, if the unit was wiped out) any model hit. That's one less template, especially when it's a complex moving-template attack like that. Remember that half the point of the Zombie Cannon is to get zombies across the board, although it is pretty suicidal. Spawn could auto-die when you fire them so you don't get the same problem that Zombies would create of having a billion units all of a sudden if they didn't all activate after everything else. I thought 100% of the point of the Zombie Cannon was that it's a combination of awesome and hilarious. ;D I've a better idea for the Spawn - the cannon swallows an entire unit, firing a single Spawn with a Fortitude equal to the sum remaining wounds of the unit. So if you fire a full unit, you land in the middle of the enemy and maintain all-or-most of your resilience, at the expense of 2/3rds of your attacks. The resilience is limited slightly by the damage inflicted upon the Spawn in the process; the downside is mitigated by the Zombie Cannon's template and the ability of lone Spawn to go nuclear (allowing full units of three to transform into triplicate non-scattering 5" blasts is probably a bit too much). Exploding Mutants could be pretty amusing, but i see Dragonlord's point about too many death-templates slowing the game down. Maybe give them a free sergeant, with no bonuses but the template-on-death is a 5" one centred on him, so you don't have to mess around with half a dozen 3" templates. Good call on the extra Cultist rules, by the way, but Press On might make a cultist-and-zombie-heavy force into one enormous tarpit. Actually that might be okay, gameplay-wise. Good idea on the squad leader. I did briefly consider having a 5" template centred on any member of the squad, but it passed out of my mind again for some reason. Perhaps do that instead, with no need for a unit leader. It's going to do only a little less damage to the enemy, but quite a bit less damage to a properly-positioned Cultist unit. I thought of another amusing tactic for self-sacrifice. Get a unit of Channellers bunched up tightly together and pile cultists around them. Command the Channellers to Horrifically Erupt all over themselves. (Horrific Eruption isn't a targeted attack, so you can shoot at anything you want with it, friendly or enemy.) With the maximum scatter distance being 0", you have a non-deviating template and, if you place the models right and don't roll too many 1s, 15+ bodies. Sure, chances are you'll lose all of the Channellers in the process, but meh. And yes, a cultist/zombie army is all tarpitting. Shouldn't be too bad, though. Pile In and Get Shot makes it a little easier to mow down cultists, and they aren't *that* cheap/good (a unit of 8 Gungans is only one point more, and Gungans are nigh impossible to shoot down, being All Terrain, Speed 6 and having shields - a total of Sw13 if they run into cover and there aren't any templates coming their way). Zombies are avoidable, very much so, and let's be honest, if you rely on massive amounts of Power 4 attacks to do all your damage, you're screwed as soon as any vehicles turn up. But yes. You can happily get a base of 60 troops for 66 points, then spend your other almost-200 points (in a 250 game) on CSM or Daemons. Yet another benefit of Mortals existing. Of course, 190-odd points of CSM is probably only four units, five at a stretch. For your Cultists' price you could expand your army by another two Marine squads, those lethal and resilient scalpel units that are there to do more stuff than just bait the enemy into killing them to give you magic powers. I guess playtesting will, as always, seal the deal. A change I can foresee possibly happening is the limiting of cultist units to 20 guys instead of 30. A unit of 30 is mildly silly and puts out a frightening number of (admittedly crap) attacks. It also makes a ridiculous tarpit. If I do that, Pile In and Get Shot will probably apply to units of above 10.
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Chaos
Jan 21, 2010 12:52:28 GMT -5
Post by Oliver on Jan 21, 2010 12:52:28 GMT -5
Here's a Nurgle Daemon Weapon I thought of whilst looking at a chewed biro lid:
Witherspike A vicious, rusted and filthy spike of metal, the size of a man's leg, with a handle and stock like an old-fashioned rifle or musket. Around the spike is wrapped a sort of flat spring, on which is inscribed a spell of terrible power. A pull of the trigger slots the final rune into place and a ray of darkness shoots from the tip of the weapon, ageing and decaying its target to dust in mere seconds. The weapon is powered by the blood of the user, drawn from the hand supporting the barrel by the jagged surface of the spike.
Rn12" Pr5 Sear 2 Cumbersome Any living model hit by the Witherspike permanently reduces their Sw by 1 (not cumulative) as they are aged by its effects.
The user may choose to 'overcharge' the weapon by anointing it with larger amounts of their own blood. The user takes a Pr4 hit, but the weapon may make its next shot at Pr 6 and with Sear 5.
In close combat, the Witherspike has Critical Fatality, as it will feed uncontrollably on the life of the target if it draws blood when physically stabbed into them.
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Chaos
Jan 22, 2010 8:22:43 GMT -5
Post by Adam on Jan 22, 2010 8:22:43 GMT -5
Here's a Nurgle Daemon Weapon I thought of whilst looking at a chewed biro lid: Witherspike A vicious, rusted and filthy spike of metal, the size of a man's leg, with a handle and stock like an old-fashioned rifle or musket. Around the spike is wrapped a sort of flat spring, on which is inscribed a spell of terrible power. A pull of the trigger slots the final rune into place and a ray of darkness shoots from the tip of the weapon, ageing and decaying its target to dust in mere seconds. The weapon is powered by the blood of the user, drawn from the hand supporting the barrel by the jagged surface of the spike. Rn12" Pr5 Sear 2 Cumbersome Any living model hit by the Witherspike permanently reduces their Sw by 1 (not cumulative) as they are aged by its effects. The user may choose to 'overcharge' the weapon by anointing it with larger amounts of their own blood. The user takes a Pr4 hit, but the weapon may make its next shot at Pr 6 and with Sear 5. In close combat, the Witherspike has Critical Fatality, as it will feed uncontrollably on the life of the target if it draws blood when physically stabbed into them. This is neat! Especially the Crit Fatality in melee, that's quite characterful. Rules thoughts: - Overcharge is far too forgiving for having a daemon weapon suck all your blood out through your arm. I say an automatic wound, but see the next point. - Might as well make it Pr6 Sear(silly) anyway, and give Overcharge some other ridiculous effect, because it's still not as good as Sith Lightning. Thousand Son bolters have roughly the profile you've given it at basic level. - Cumbersome does nothing on ranged weapons (which can't make 'free' attacks anyway). - I really can't be arsed to add living/unliving model definitions to Infinite Frontier, and I think instead the debuff should apply to the target unit for one turn. That way you get some use out of the ability if you fire it at soldier squads, and it saves on record-keeping. Great idea though. Keep 'em coming. We really should do some more writing on this codex sometime soon, btw. Edit: another thought - probably want to limit its anti-vehicle power in some way, like making it Anti-Material (4) or something, because heroes' high Skill will otherwise lead to five automatic/near-automatic Power 10 hits on any vehicle unfortunate enough to get near it. Limiting those to Power 8 would stop it being quite so deadly (it might still get five hits, but they cause damage on 7s).
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